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  • Did Homeopathy Kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple?

    Edzard Ernst, considered the "first professor of complementary medicine", is claiming,

    Steve Jobs was likely a victim of homeopathy, expert tells Australian conference
    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/interna...#ixzz1ggVZEewU
    My first thought was this is odd since the full details of Jobs alternative medical treatment haven't been disclosed.

    It has been reported that Jobs delayed possible life saving surgery for nine months to pursue alternative treatments and there has been much discussion whether the delay would have made any difference in outcome. Some reports say his cancer, a neuroendocrine tumor, that affects the cells that make hormones like insulin. was found very early due to an unrelated CAT scan and would have been curable if he didn't wait to operate. Other reports say that cancer already has spread. Jobs didn't want to be "opened up". Jobs spent $100,000 to have his DNA sequenced to seek specific treatments that might have been genetically beneficial for his type of pancreatic cancer and subsequent liver metastases. Jobs had access to the best alternative medical advice. It is also has been discussed whether his celebrity status got him an early liver transplant bypassing normal wait times. It would be highly unlikely that Jobs solely, if actually, used homeopathy and if so, from a classical homeopath.

    No other mainstream, alternative, complementary source specifically implicated homeopathy with Jobs' death.

    Andrew Weil doesn't mention homeopathy http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/27/opinio...obs/index.html

    David Gorski, surgical oncologist, researched Jobs' treatment doesn't mention homeopathy and he checked through the post-death release of Jobs' biography. Jobs had a famous personal biographer, Walter Isaacson, follow him to ensure his life story was properly and honestly told.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ne-more-thing/

    No mention of homeopathy by Walter Isaacson on a 60 Minutes TV interview recently http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7385688n

    Another, no mention of homeopathy http://gawker.com/5851835/steve-jobs...ative-medicine

    Scientific American, no mention of homeopathy http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...teve-jobs-life

    NY Times, again no mention of homeopathy http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/he...gery.html?_r=1

    Again, no mention of homeopathy but other treatments Jobs used. http://www.ajc.com/opinion/smart-peo...s-1249315.html

    Instead, according to Isaacson, Jobs opted for a combination of diet, spiritualists and macrobiotics — “roots and vegetables” — and waited nine months to begin treatment in earnest. By then, Isaacson said, the cancer had spread from Jobs’ pancreas to the surrounding tissue. Jobs explained, “I didn’t want my body to be opened. ... I didn’t want to be violated in that way.” Isaacson concludes with the question: “How could such a smart man do such a stupid thing?”


    Not familiar with Edzard Ernst, my Googling shows he founded the Complementary Medicine Dep't of at University of Exeter England and after being accused of breaching a confidence by negatively commenting on a British CAM report before it was officially released, commissioned by Prince Charles, was then found innocent, he feels he was treated as persona non grata, funding for his dep't ceased and he took early retirement in 2011. The Lancet editor wrote,

    "Professor Ernst seems to have broken every professional code of scientific behaviour by disclosing correspondence referring to a document that is in the process of being reviewed and revised prior to publication. This breach of confidence is to be deplored."

    Ernst wrote "Should We Maintain an Open Mind about Homeopathy?" highly critical of it.

    Is it possible Edzard Ernst has a vendetta against homeopathy?

    Jobs is considered a god-like visionary figure behind Apple and having homeopathy associated with his death, if not actualy true, should not be allowed to go unchallenged.

    The sound bite-like publicity alone is damaging to homeopathy as the public reads these headlines propagated through many news services.

    Even if this were true, one would have to look at who gave him homeopathic remedies, what their background is, whether professionally trained/certified, lay or claiming to be a homeopath or using homeopathy as part of other alternative treatments.

    Susan




    Steve Jobs was likely a victim of homeopathy, expert tells Australian conference
    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/interna...#ixzz1ggVZEewU
    My first thought was this is odd since the full details of Jobs alternative medical treatment haven't been disclosed.

    It has been reported that Jobs delayed possible life saving surgery for nine months to pursue alternative treatments and there has been much discussion whether the delay would have made any difference in outcome. Some reports say his cancer, a neuroendocrine tumor, that affects the cells that make hormones like insulin. was found very early due to an unrelated CAT scan and would have been curable if he didn't wait to operate. Other reports say that cancer already has spread. Jobs didn't want to be "opened up". Jobs spent $100,000 to have his DNA sequenced to seek specific treatments that might have been genetically beneficial for his type of pancreatic cancer and subsequent liver metastases. Jobs had access to the best alternative medical advice. It is also has been discussed whether his celebrity status got him an early liver transplant bypassing normal wait times. It would be highly unlikely that Jobs solely, if actually, used homeopathy and if so, from a classical homeopath.

    No other mainstream, alternative, complementary source specifically implicated homeopathy with Jobs' death.

    Andrew Weil doesn't mention homeopathy http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/27/opinio...obs/index.html

    David Gorski, surgical oncologist, researched Jobs' treatment doesn't mention homeopathy and he checked through the post-death release of Jobs' biography. Jobs had a famous personal biographer, Walter Isaacson, follow him to ensure his life story was properly and honestly told.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ne-more-thing/

    No mention of homeopathy by Walter Isaacson on a 60 Minutes TV interview recently http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7385688n

    Another, no mention of homeopathy http://gawker.com/5851835/steve-jobs...ative-medicine

    Scientific American, no mention of homeopathy http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...teve-jobs-life

    NY Times, again no mention of homeopathy http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/he...gery.html?_r=1

    Again, no mention of homeopathy but other treatments Jobs used. http://www.ajc.com/opinion/smart-peo...s-1249315.html

    Instead, according to Isaacson, Jobs opted for a combination of diet, spiritualists and macrobiotics — “roots and vegetables” — and waited nine months to begin treatment in earnest. By then, Isaacson said, the cancer had spread from Jobs’ pancreas to the surrounding tissue. Jobs explained, “I didn’t want my body to be opened. ... I didn’t want to be violated in that way.” Isaacson concludes with the question: “How could such a smart man do such a stupid thing?”


    Not familiar with Edzard Ernst, my Googling shows he founded the Complementary Medicine Dep't of at University of Exeter England and after being accused of breaching a confidence by negatively commenting on a British CAM report before it was officially released, commissioned by Prince Charles, was then found innocent, he feels he was treated as persona non grata, funding for his dep't ceased and he took early retirement in 2011. The Lancet editor wrote,

    "Professor Ernst seems to have broken every professional code of scientific behaviour by disclosing correspondence referring to a document that is in the process of being reviewed and revised prior to publication. This breach of confidence is to be deplored."

    Ernst wrote "Should We Maintain an Open Mind about Homeopathy?" highly critical of it.

    Is it possible Edzard Ernst has a vendetta against homeopathy?

    Jobs is considered a god-like visionary figure behind Apple and having homeopathy associated with his death, if not actualy true, should not be allowed to go unchallenged.

    The sound bite-like publicity alone is damaging to homeopathy as the public reads these headlines propagated through many news services.

    Even if this were true, one would have to look at who gave him homeopathic remedies, what their background is, whether professionally trained/certified, lay or claiming to be a homeopath or using homeopathy as part of other alternative treatments.

    Susan

  • #2
    Did homeopathy kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple

    Edzard Ernst is an inveterate opponent of homeopathy, and has been for many years. He is well-known and despised in the UK! His university chair at Exeter is funded by Big Pharma companies. Calling the chair 'Complementary Medicine' was a stroke of genius! As in these articles, he is described as an 'expert'. He has no qualification in homeopathy.

    Obviously interesting claims for him to make, and it would seem he has more information about Jobs than you (us) - or he thinks he has.

    Conventional Medicine (ConMed) kills people directly through taking Big Pharma drugs. ConMed is now the biggest single killer in USA, and probably elsewhere.

    Jobs wasn't 'killed' by any homeopathic treatment. If he delayed ConMed treatment, Ernst's argument is that this treatment is so good, so life-saving, so safe (et al) that the delay (caused by homeopathy) killed him. In other words, Job should not have the right to choose how he was treated, and that he should not have been allowed to delay ConMed treatment.

    But let us not even assume it was homeopathy! Who did he see, or consult with? Did he do so by choice? Did he get good advice? Was he properly informed about his choices, and options?

    This is just another attack on homeopathy, and one that we can expect to be used ad nauseam for the next few years.

    Steve Scrutton
    Director, Alliance of Registered Homeopaths

    Comment


    • #3
      re: Did Homeopathy Kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple?

      Interesting--and wow, you have done your research!

      Vendetta seems like a very plausible possibility--but would he deliberately lie to achieve it? (Well, I guess people do that...) Another possibility is that he's among the fundamentally clueless, to whom everything non-mainstream is part of "homeopathy," even the "diet, spiritualists and macrobiotics — “roots and vegetables”. I guess that would be the more charitable conclusion. How sad!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Did homeopathy kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple

        > But let us not even assume it was homeopathy! Who did he see, or consult with?
        >Did he do so by choice? Did he get good advice? Was he properly informed about his choices, and options?


        The problem is that there are no controls on the use of the word "homeopathy." I see the word "homeopathic" thrown around inaccurately all the time, whether in advertising to describe OTC products that are NOT homeopathic, or as a catch-all term for ALL forms of alternative medicine. As a consequence, the failures of all manner of alternative practices (and outright snake-oil products!) are laid at our doorstep, despite the fact that they have absolutely nothing to do with the homeopathic system of medicine. Not only is it a false accusation, it reveals either profound lack of knowledge or near-criminal deceit on the part of the person making the accusation.

        While I don't think it would be feasible (or desirable) to trademark the word, I can't help but wonder if there isn't some legislative/regulatory recourse--at least here in the U.S.--wherein products or services described as "homeopathic" would have to demonstrate that they are, in fact, based on Hahnemann's system of medicine in order to use the term in their advertising/packaging.


        Cee

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Did homeopathy kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple

          Yes it seems like there should be!! But good luck getting any (ANY) definition accepted by the homeopathic community. In particular those who believe than any practice not specifically spelled out in 6th ed. Organon is "not homeopathy"... (Oh head spinning just to think of the brouhaha...)

          Shannon

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Did homeopathy kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple

            Dear Shannon,

            As you very well know, homoeopaths' objections to the polypharmacy and other nonsense you promote as forms of homoeopthy are based on nothing whatever to do with sixth-edition methods or any particular recommendations; they are based on the meaning of homoeopathy itself.

            As you also very well know, no homoeopath has yet given any basis at all for objection to the definition of homoeopathy that has been understood by everybody for two centuries. Variously expressed in various places, that definition is nevertheless simple, comprehensible, clear, and unambiguous. It has been expressed in many ways merely in the many discussions you have provoked on the topic whenever you have suggested that homoeopathy's meaning has extended to incorporate its opposite.

            Here's one phrasing of the definition, which I challenge anybody to argue is incorrect:

            *use of a medicinal substance known to be capable of causing in the healthy the symptoms of the illness that it is being used to treat*.

            Kind regards,

            John

            Comment


            • #7
              Steve job was one of the genius of our century and he surely knew what type of treatment will benefit him.That was his personal choice. Having had a good anaytical mind might, he might had thought of every possibility, and done what he thought right. We don't know what type of treatment he took.

              For proper development of homoeopathy , there will be proper instituitions. The syllabus should consist of the up to date knowledge of healthy conditions(anatomy,physiology etc),disease knowledge(pathology,practice of medicnes, microbiology etc..) and homoeopathic subjects. Other wise a hompath cannot talk authoratively during controverise or combat attack upon the system, and he can prove the cure shown to the world using all modern facilities.

              Increasing attack on homoeopathy means, increasing popularity of homoeopathy. Homoeopathy cannot grow by its own without cure. So the enemies of homoeopathy is closely watching the progress of homoeopathy and will try to do anything to stop the spreading. The false news are one of the way. But truth will prevail and homoeopathy will march forward with its wonderful cures
              <a href="http://www.pannakkal.com" target="_blank">www.pannakkal.com</a>

              Comment


              • #8
                re: Did Homeopathy Kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple?

                I'll second that: great research, Susan. It is interesting to consider whether Ernst is incapable of distinguishing having homoeopathic treatment from having no treatment. He and many of his fellow aspiring skeptics have made that mistake in the past, and evidently it's on this basis that Ernst is now prepared to state that anybody who, in his totally uninformed opinion, has delayed treatment by the methods he supports has had homoeopathic treatment€”and therefore has delayed because of homoeopathy.


                Using as it does the exact standard of evidence that supports the conclusion that vaccinations wiped out anything you care to name€”that is, proof by unsupported anecdotal generalisation€”it's an unbeatable argument!
                :-)


                But let's be even more charitable than Shannon suggests, and assume that Ernst has factual inside knowledge that Steve Jobs, after his nine-month delay in doing anything insignificant, obtained homoeopathic treatment. What does Jobs's survival for seven years [1] say in those circumstances?


                According to <http://cancer.emedtv.com/pancreatic-cancer/pancreatic-cancer-survival-rates-p2.html>, the five-year relative rate [2] of surviving pancreatic cancer discovered
                before spreading even to lymph nodes is just 16.4 per cent, and the five-year relative rate of surviving it if it's discovered after it has metastasised (as it had definitely by nine months after diagnosis and most likely even before diagnosis [3]) is just 1.8 per cent [4].


                If those survival rates are correct and relevant, then we can draw two
                conclusions.


                (1) On the basis of the more likely scenario€”that the tumour had metastasised to the liver by the time of his diagnosis€”Jobs's prognosis, statistically speaking, was a 98.2% chance of dying by early 2009 of the cancer. Yet he outlived that five years by a further two and a half years. It's not possible to conclude on the basis of such evidence that
                Jobs would "probably" have lived longer had he been operated on sooner. The available evidence suggests that the vast majority of people€”who do not take the unusual measures Jobs initially did of avoiding surgery and using lifestyle changes to support his overall health€”do not survive for five years. Eighty percent do not even survive one year [5]. Therefore if Jobs's choice to delay surgery and to adopt the lifestyle changes that Ernst ignorantly calls "homoeopathy" in fact had any effect on his survival, they would seem to have extended it by more than six and a half years.


                (2) On the basis of the less likely scenario€”that the tumour had not metastasised by the time of diagnosis€”Jobs's statistical prognosis was a 16.4% chance of surviving to early 2009 [4]. That is, 83.6% of people diagnosed before metastasis to the liver do not survive that long. Jobs survived two and a half years longer. Again, even if there were some way of knowing that diagnosis preceded metastasis, it would not be possible to conclude that Jobs would "probably" have lived longer.


                Clearly Ernst's studied ignorance of the difference between refusing or delaying surgery and having homoeopathic treatment is compounded by a woeful ignorance of pancreatic cancer survival rates under the best allopathic treatment, even if he does enjoy unique access, unavailable to all other investigators, to knowledge of Steve Jobs's exact selections of lifestyle and alternative treatment in the first nine months following diagnosis.


                John




                [1] David Gorski calculates eight years. Presumably the diagnosis was made in early 2004 and Jobs lived closer to eight than to seven years further.


                [2] This is higher than the (absolute) five-year survival rate for pancreatic cancer because it takes into account that the five-year survival rate of those without cancer is not 100%.


                [3] Even the anti-alternative David Gorski honestly admits that, in a slow-moving illness such as this, the very presence, at the time of his pancreatic operation, of visible liver metastases indicates a high probability that small metastases were already present nine months earlier.


                "on the other hand, chances are very good that those liver metastases were there nine months before. Insulinomas tend not to grow so fast that they can progress from micrometastases to metastases visible to the surgeons in that short a period of time. So, while on the surface this revelation would seem to the average lay person to indicate that Jobs€™ delay very well might have killed him, in reality, thanks to lead time bias<http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-early-detection-of-cancer-and-improved-survival-more-complicated-than-most-people-think/>, it probably means that his fate was sealed by the time he was diagnosed€


                "Just yesterday, a pediatrician named Michele Berman<http://www.celebritydiagnosis.com/'>speculating How alternative medicine may have killed Jobs<http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/10/alternative-medicine-killed-steve-jobs.html>. The article basically consists of many of the same oncologically unsophisticated arguments that I complained about right after Jobs€™ death, some of which are included in another blog post on Celebrity Diagnosis<http://www.celebritydiagnosis.com/2011/10/steve-jobs-cancer-timeline-and-eating-disorder-an-infographic/>. Clearly, an education in lead time bias<http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-early-detection-of-cancer-and-improved-survival-more-complicated-than-most-people-think/>is required€ chances are that surgery right after his diagnosis probably
                wouldn€™t have saved Jobs€


                "Although it€™s no doubt counterintuitive to most readers (and obviously to Dr. Berman as well), finding liver metastases at the time of Jobs€™ first operation strongly suggests this conclusion because it indicates that those metastases were almost certainly present nine months before€ At the time of his diagnosis and during the nine months afterward during which he tried woo instead of medicine, it was entirely reasonable to be concerned that the delay was endangering his life, because it might have been. It was
                impossible to know until later€”and, quite frankly, not even then€”whether Jobs€™ [*sic*] delaying surgery contributed to his death."


                <http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/one-more-thing/>


                [4] <http://cancer.emedtv.com/pancreatic-...-rates-p2.html>


                [5] According to the American Cancer Society, for all stages of pancreatic cancer combined, the one-year relative survival rate is 20%, and the five-year rate is 4%. <http://www.pancreatic.org/site/c.htJYJ8MPIwE/b.891917/k.5123/Prognosis_of_Pancreatic_Cancer.htm>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Did homeopathy kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple

                  I think you are mostly right. But don't forget that the 'critics of homeopathy' represent conventional medicine (ConMed), and in particular Big Pharma. They are very powerful, and very influential in political circles. They dominate most national health services. Whilst homeopathy must continue proving itself as a healing therapy, this is not the only battle. After all, homeopathy has always been more effective, and massively safer than ConMed!

                  'They' are moving to stop the promotion and sale of supplements, herbal remedies, homeopathy, and lots more. They are trying to discredit homeopathy in this way, and in other ways. And because of the power and influence of Big Pharma they are being successful.

                  So the homeopathy community has to get together and unite - something we have never been able to do before, squabbling as we have always done about potencies, and methodology, et al. Let's hope we will do just that.

                  Steve Scrutton
                  Director, Alliance of Registered Homeopaths

                  steve (AT) a-r-h (DOT) org
                  www.a-r-h.org



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    re: Did Homeopathy Kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple?

                    "Remembering that I’ll be dead soon is the most important tool I’ve ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything — all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure - these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart." - Steve Jobs

                    That Ernst can attempt to manipulate how Steve Jobs chose to deal with his illness to support his own petty personal vendetta against homeopathy is nothing short of despicable and leaves me open mouthed and speechless. The man is lucky he's nowhere nearby or I'd be sorely tempted to go and give him a good slap. Jobs was an inspiration: may he rest in the peace he so richly deserves. Ernst is a cockroach.

                    And those are excellent points John!

                    Wendy



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      re: Did Homeopathy Kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple?

                      Given the antagonism those such as Ernst have for homeopathy (remember that many of the "antis" have the attitude that if it were proven in the peer reviewed journals that they respect, they would still not believe it), I am not surprised that he does such a disservice to the truth.

                      What does surprise me is how blatant it is, and how they have a following.


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        re: Did Homeopathy Kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple?

                        Writing from Australia, where this story ran, I have a different view.

                        In this instance, Ernst probably said no such thing. It is more likely the spin that editors / journalists have placed on the story.

                        If you read the body of the article there is no mention of homeopathy specifically yet the headline screams 'Jobs a Victim of Homeopathy'.

                        This is a clear breach of editorial and journalistic standards but such things becoming increasinly common in this country.

                        These days, only negative or highly inflammatory stories about homeopathy are run with no right of reply.

                        Once positive and significant stories would make it into print and on TV also but not any more.

                        Elements within our media are the true source of this headline, not Ernst (thought I am sure he would have loved it to have been true).

                        It is part of a worldwide trend.


                        Kind Regards,

                        Fran Sheffield

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          re: Did Homeopathy Kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple?

                          From what I read about Steve Jobs, he would seem to be someone needing his final word about just pretty everything. This might have been his key symptom. And I'd say this is not the sort of over-mentalised patient you gladly welcome. That is, if he ever saw a homeopath, which he (probably) did not.

                          Hennie

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            re: Did Homeopathy Kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple?

                            Thanks to everyone for getting involved on this issue.

                            Here's where Edzard Ernst spoke: http://www.apsa-online.org/

                            This is the quote attributed to him:


                            He said the plethora of misinformation about homeopathy -- which treats "like with like" through the dilution of elements -- had contributed to deaths, likely including that of Jobs, who died from pancreatic cancer in October.


                            http://www.nypost.com/p/news/interna...#ixzz1gpmZnegz

                            Fran is correct about media spin, since the word "likely" is being omitted as this propagates around the web.
                            Unfortunately much of the negativity isn't just from media news but from bloggers, skeptics and others who see the story headlines and write based on that.
                            Edzard Ernst still has clout as a recognized "expert" and may be sought after just as Nixon was after Watergate and Clinton after Lewinski.

                            Google or input to any search engine, "Steve Jobs Homeopathy" to see the damage already being wrought in a few short days.

                            https://www.google.com/search?source...obs+homeopathy

                            77,000 results include:

                            Steve Jobs lost the battle to homeopathy

                            http://thinkbda.com/blog/what-do-the...ave-in-common/

                            http://www.danbuzzard.net/journal/ho...teve-jobs.html

                            "Steve Jobs Homoepathy" returns 681,000 links.

                            https://www.google.com/search?source...w=1441&bih=587


                            This is vastly more damaging than the usual homeopathy is quackery article because of the significance of who is involved and the speed this has taken off.

                            The reason I posted this here is Google searches include this website, and now these URLs are on the first page of "Steve Jobs Homeopathy" and "Steve Jobs Homoeopathy" search.

                            For those posting here through the Homeopathy Mailing List, all posts are simultaneously posted on http://otherhealth.com/ and searched by Google.

                            Please use the following URL of this discussion to post a response to any blog or article promulgating this falsehood.
                            No need to get involved in endless arguments just copy/paste and post the link:

                            http://www.otherhealth.com/homeopath...der-apple.html

                            I hereby call on Dana Ullman, who already has written on these issues for The Huffington Post, a widely read top website, to contact Walter Isaacson, Jobs' biographer, and as a peer, to ascertain what if any homeopathic methods may have been used and hopefully issue an explanation that would absolve solely homeopathy. It is more likely Dana can elicit a response. Then post a proper rebuttal to the notion that homeopathy killed Steve Jobs in The Huffington Post. This would be more influential and long lasting than responding in Twitter to every quackbuster currently tweeting Dana.

                            Lastly, for those who don't feel like anything can be done to fight this tsunami, by just posting a response here, even to say I agree in support, helps boost this URL in the Google search results, keeping it on top! Currently, we are the only voice in the search results to question this allegation. Let's make sure we're the loudest!

                            Susan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Did homeopathy kill Steve Jobs, founder of Apple

                              On Dec 16, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Shannon Nelson wrote:

                              > Yes it seems like there should be!! But good luck getting any (ANY) definition accepted by the homeopathic community.


                              Why?
                              The word was coined by Hahnemann to describe HIS system.
                              How hard can it be to just keep it that way.

                              ......Irene
                              --
                              Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
                              P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
                              www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
                              "Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

                              Comment

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