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  • asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

    Originally posted by Jeff Tikari
    It would be interesting to hear what other methods are used. Could we just hear the methods other doctors use without criticism. It would be a learning curve for a lot of us.
    Hi Jeff,

    Seconding your request for "no criticism" :-) , I am curious whether you found that single doses in this situation did not hold well enough, or not act strongly enough, or whethern you were simply *taught* to begin this way for this type of situation? My reason for asking is just wondering whether there are some cases I might have lost thru inadequate posology (expecting a single dose to do more than it was able); at the same time I am nervous about frequent repetitions, and want to better understand its uses and reasons.

    Also, have you (and everyone!) treated any asthma patients with low potencies, and how did those go, and also what has your experience been re aggravations of asthma? (A topic that makes me more nervous now that I now more about asthma, than it did when I treated my one case!)

    Thanks!
    Shannon
    Last edited by jonh; 14th September 2004, 07:20 PM.

  • #2
    Re: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

    Shannon,
    I found low potencies very slow generally, with patients reverting to their steroid inhalers during episodes. I now give them a few doses of B. Morgan - pure(Patterson) to use in emergencies and I am told it is as good as a bronchial inhaler. A single dose has not worked for me as most patients have already been on steroid inhalers for years - maybe steroids prevent light homeo remedies from doing much good.
    A young man who said he had very bad eczema as an infant, developed asthma at age 9 that progressed unremittingly and got worse over the years. He was seriously considering quitting his job as the dust at work flared his asthma. At 40 yrs he was bent over, wore extra clothes to contain a continuous sniffling cold and hated bathing as it agravated his asthma. He used his inhaler almost continuously whilst talking to me.

    Sulphur 10M for three days did him good, but by the fifth day he was back on steroids. Sul CM for ten days did him a world of good and he now says he is free of asthma sometimes for two or even three weeks at a time. He doesn't want any more medication as he can controll the asthma with diet now and has put on weight. He is also taking an assortment of ayurvedic medicines. Over the years he has got so used to taking medicines that he says he cannot do without it - he has to take something for his mental satisfaction.
    Well, as long as it is doing him no harm.

    Jeff Tikari
    Last edited by jonh; 14th September 2004, 07:21 PM.

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    • #3
      RE: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

      Dear Jeff, Shannon, Caroline, Joy and others,

      Thanks! This is just the discussion I want to hear. My gut feeling has been to go low and repeat a lot but it is really good to hear Jeff's comments on his actual experience. I very much appreciate hearing about these patients and I hope there may still be more posts to come.

      Sherill
      Last edited by jonh; 14th September 2004, 07:22 PM.

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      • #4
        Re: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

        Thanks Jeff,

        Probably one reason my patient responded so well is that he had *not* used any steroids (tho he had been using herbs and I forget what other "natural" therapies -- he is a talented alternative healer with many available tools). So I think that prior to the remedy his immune system was being supported, not suppressed.

        I am interested to hear that Morgan pure works so well -- can you tell me more about what potency and repetition you use (or how you choose these)? I have read that bowel nosodes need more care with repetition than "regular" remedies -- but you have seen no problem with this "as needed" use? Can you describe more?

        Shannon
        Last edited by jonh; 14th September 2004, 07:22 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

          Dear Shannon

          In my last post I gave examples of how I generally treat cases of asthma. In my experience there is nearly always a need to repeat because of suppression and long term of the condition. In these instances I nearly always opt for low potency or LM's. This sometimes suffices for an alternative dose to allopathic drugs during an actual attack (sometimes a different rx is needed if the attack doesn't completely fit the totality of the case), and this helps to get the client off their allopathic drugs. Asthma can be life threatening and the person has to feel safe if they have an attack.

          If the potency is correct there is less likely to be aggravations - it is more likely that you have to manage ongoing attacks and weaning off the drugs and maybe deal with any suppressed condition underneath the asthma. Frequent follow ups are useful so the person knows they have good contact.

          I don't think I have even given high single doses in any asthma case.

          Best wishes, Joy

          www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
          Last edited by jonh; 14th September 2004, 07:23 PM.

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          • #6
            Re: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

            Oops, yes, thankyou!!!

            Shannon
            Last edited by jonh; 14th September 2004, 10:43 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

              Joy, this sounds great.
              Have you ever found yourself giving a patient so many remedies that their
              picture becomes confused?

              Best wishes
              Caroline :-)
              Last edited by jonh; 15th September 2004, 01:13 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

                Hi Sherill,

                I remember a case of a three year old in an acute asthma attack. His mother said he was going purple and I said call an ambulance!! At the same time her husband collected from me a 10M dose of Tuberculinum. I was newly qualified and gave the remedy and prayed - one of those, 'oh God I hope I've done the right thing', times. His parents phoned to say his breathing came right within minutes. That child is now 13 and has never had another asthma attack! Phew! He had had some attacks previously and his father was a chronic asthmatic who tended to deal with it without any medication, and never, even after this result, pursued homoeopathic treatment for himself.

                I find asthma a bit scary so haven't gone as high again and maybe if I did would complete a case sooner. Most of my cases seem to do well on a 1m in an acute, when they come to the clinic - and I give them a 30c to take at home when they first feel the symptoms come on. They will generally get some relief from the 30c but need a higher potency for a bigger effect. I find as they improve I see them less and less. It is really interesting to get them to do a peak flow about 1/2 hr after taking a remedy. It is amazing how much better the breathing can become quite quickly. I get them to take a reading before the remedy, and then 1/2 hr after.

                It is really interesting to read everyone's experiences on this subject.

                Cheers
                Chris
                Last edited by jonh; 15th September 2004, 11:23 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

                  Hi Chris,

                  If you remember, could you mention what your pointers were for Tub? (In particular I am wondering, had you been able to get a "full case" or was this based on the particulars of the attack?)

                  Thanks!
                  Shannon
                  Last edited by jonh; 15th September 2004, 05:40 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Asthma dosing

                    I think I may have done any number of different dosing methods for asthma.
                    BUT the rule is that most of them have required repetition of the remedy - often the constitutional similimum in chronic asthmatics and an acute remedy for infective episodes (meaning not allergic responses but those caused by viral or bacterial infection).

                    I always start with 2-3 doses of 30C or 200C initially to check the susceptibility of each patient.

                    One patient settled with MAg Carb 200C daily, when the 30C daily was not effective enough. then he gradually reduced the frequency when he was better. restarted as required.

                    Another was on MAg Mur 200 every 48 hours or so as she tended to have very violently acute episodes. Initially I had given her BElladonna for acutes, but I found that the Mag mur controlled the acuteness even better in the acute state as well as chronically.

                    One child needed Ars Iod 1M evey 4 hours in split doses during an acute attack. Calc Iod was his chronic remedy.

                    One child did well on a dose of Kali Carb 200C every time she began to feel breathless. It stopped the wheezing immediately. In between episodes she ha sudden attacks of very high fever that would respond to BElladonna 1M! I think I gave her a dose of Tuberculinum 1m as well as antimiasmatic sometime in between.

                    A small boy needed just one dose of Tuberculinum 1M whenever he would have an attack of breathlessness with fever.

                    Another very commonly indicated remedy is Anitm tart or Antim Ars in acutes. Other remedies that have been indicated are Hyoscyamus, Lycopodium, Sulphur, Cuprum Met, Stramonium.

                    Nat Sulph in LM potencies have worked very well in children and adults that have asthma associated with eczema. I think sycotic patients may probably respond better to LM's in asthma.

                    well these have been some of my experiences.
                    dr. leela

                    www.homeopathy2health.com
                    http://www.homeopathy2health.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sometimes i am afraid about my suggestion on repeating doses of homeopathic remedy. In elderly people i repeat nearly always beginning in most cases with 2OOk for 3 days and than repeating once a globule each week. I feel this is necessary ... but only for constitutionnal treathment. Sometimes i tell to take a solution (one granule in a cup water and drinking during daytime)... Sometimes when the patients react good i ask to wait and ask the nurses to observe and start when, mostly behaviour problems start again...

                      In babys and youg children i ask always to take the remedy in water solution and repeat for one day drinking (teaspoon) untill amelioration and than stop and observe...

                      I feel repeating is important because of the possibilities of taking the energy.
                      In my perception energy is always present and sometimes we have not the possibility to take energy. Personally i believe that the extra energy will do nothing. Only your remedy can be not the right and the organism will push symptoms that guide us to the good remedy.
                      In this way i feel that working with homeopathy is helping people to follow the red line in their life and helping us to understand what 'can' be the purpose of his(her) life.
                      A lot of theoritical ideas and interpretations block us as homeopath and i do'nt believe in this way of thinking (proovings, aggravations exist but you have to manage this state, it tell you what you did not already knew)...
                      I agree totally with Leela about individualisation and this is also experience.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

                        Apologies for delay I have been putting my feet up, or more accurately,
                        in the sea.

                        Hi Sherrill,

                        certainly does depend on the case but I understand what you ask..

                        What dictates the posology is the immediate requirements of the patient

                        Therefore if the patient is having immediate troubles breathing then it will be treated 'as an acute', this will quite likely mean more than one dose. If there is no immediate distress then the dose ( or doses) will be further spaced out. A patient with occasional acute episodes may get additional doses/remedies for those episodes dependant on their severity. I would say that there is no definite way to dose but responding to the patients requirement without prejudice. Single dose single remedy is no more the rule than multiple dose
                        multiple remedy. Just go with what is needed

                        There is a very high incidence of asthma where I work. I find that cases locally invariably require that vaccinations, diet, emotional causation, previous medication, are taken into account.

                        Just to demonstrate differing methods- one prescriber I know gives in acute asthma psor 10m, descending to 6 over one hour or one day depending on the case, followed with other remedies as indicated. It is his experience that this curtails any acute. I haven't tried it so I cannot comment. I have cured asthma with a single dose of one remedy and others with many many doses of many remedies.

                        Asthma presents in so many different ways therefore requires different
                        dosing strategies. So the answer to your question is that there are no hard and fast rules for asthma per se, dose as you need to. Match the dosage to the pace and intensity of the disease and the sensitivity of the patient

                        I can post some short examples if you like and if I have time?

                        Disclaimer: I do not discourage use of prescribed medications for any patient. The use of prescribed medication is a matter between the patient and their doctor.

                        regards


                        Simon King LCPH MARH
                        http://WWW.HOMEOPATHY-HELP.NET
                        Last edited by jonh; 19th September 2004, 10:54 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Re: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

                          Hi fons,

                          I'm curious why you instruct people to repeat a 200k every week, without first watching to see how long the effect of the first dose lasts? Usually a 200 in a chronic case would last a *lot* longer than a week, and if you repeat mechanically, you miss out on important information (via seeing how long the remedy acts) and I would think run a greater risk of aggravating?

                          Also, can you explain what you mean by "taking the energy"?

                          Thankyou!
                          Shannon
                          Last edited by jonh; 20th September 2004, 09:10 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            RE: asthma [was: dosing discussion was rubric help]

                            Originally posted by Simon
                            Apologies for delay I have been putting my feet up, or more
                            Originally posted by Simon
                            accurately, in the sea.
                            No apologies necessary - I have just returned from Nashville, TN (USA) myself. Music Capital...!


                            Originally posted by Simon
                            > certainly does depend on the case but I understand what you ask...
                            Thanks for not blasting me.



                            Originally posted by Simon
                            > What dictates the posology is the immediate requirements of the patient
                            Do you much find that the acute stage needs a different remedy than the chronic "tendency" to get these breathing problems?



                            Originally posted by Simon
                            > Just to demonstrate differing methods-
                            [wonderful stuff]


                            Originally posted by Simon
                            one prescriber I know gives in acute asthma psor 10m Psor <snip>
                            I know this is not your prescription and no criticism intended but is this a "routine" prescription. I can see why one might choose this but

                            just wondering.


                            Originally posted by Simon
                            So the answer to your question is that there are no hard and fast rules for asthma per se, dose as you need to. Match the dosage to the pace and intensity of the disease and the sensitivity of the patient.

                            Yup! I know this has to be but as a new[er] prescriber, I am unsure whether to send them off with a dose and something to "hold" for acute attack when they cannot get to the office easily - or to begin repeating off the bat.


                            Originally posted by Simon
                            I can post some short examples if you like and if I have time?
                            I would love it at any time that you find the time and willingness to do this.



                            Originally posted by Simon
                            Disclaimer: I do not discourage use of prescribed medications for any patient.
                            Thx, me neither. I never say this to anyone. As a matter of fact I ask them to change nothing until we see where we are. Then if and when they feel stronger I tell them they have to work it out with their doc.


                            Sherill
                            Last edited by jonh; 20th September 2004, 10:51 PM.

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