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  • LM 's - initial action of a remedy

    Hi all,

    I'd like to ask you what you think if - soon after giving a patient a remedy rx in LM dilution - you observe a strong picture of another remedy ry. How do you interpretate it ? Do you ignore it, if after some repetitions such picture disappears - as it often happens - or is it the picture the patient is slowly going toward ?

    Ciao and thanks.
    Ezio.

    Ezio Paglia
    Grosseto
    Italy

  • #2
    LM commentary

    Re : LM1 Crotalus Casavelus

    The mother of my patient misunderstood me and gave her 15y.o. son the whole 1/2 cup of distilled water to drink as opposed to stirring and giving a 1 tsp. dose from it.

    However, she says he was 'wonderful' "a new person with the anger gone" after that dose and the subsequent doses taken correctly "didn't do much." Now we're proceeding to LM2 (Crotalus Casavelus) and I'll proceed to instruct her to give it in the more moderate dosage. However, sometimes things happen for a reason..........???

    The remedy has had a profound positive effect..........whether it's that initial
    1/2 cup (!!!!!!) or the subsequent 1 tsp. doses may never be clear.

    Has anyone had anything like this happen with LM's?

    Bonnie

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: LM commentary

      Gave a mother medicated pills - a weeks supply, @ 3 per day.
      Her 2 yr son got a hold of it and swallowed the lot with no ill effects.
      Mother said her son seems more contented since.
      Can't remember what I gave.

      Jeff Tikari

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: LM commentary

        Yes, I had a young man who worked for me come over in a state of profound anxiety after taking some allopathic antinausea drug. It was prescribed for "nausea" although the symptom he related to the allopath was anxiety/jitters about his new job that he had waited a year to start. He has the habit of vomiting water immediately after drinking, when nervous, which ameliorates. Anyway the drug gave him "akathesia", a very uncomfortable restless anxiety which is sometimes severe enough to cause the sufferer to commit suicide, and in fact he admitted to considering shooting himself (in this area guns are routine wall/truck ornaments). Also he was chilly and normally is very hotblooded, and other sx I don't recall but all very Ars. It seemed that Ars alb was a good match but one tsp didn't do anything so I told him to drink a sip every 5 minutes. He went through 3 glasses, each with only a half tsp from the LM1 bottle as I thought repetition might be needed, and for once I was pretty confident of the remedy even though amel with vomiting doesn't include Ars.

        After the second glass, he was staring blankly in what almost looked like a trance state, but he responded appropriately, and seemed to think he was a bit better. By the third glass (about 1 1/2 hrs from the first dose) he broke into a huge smile, took a deep breath, and said he felt "better than I have in years." The next day he was a very apprehensive again, but didn't respond to Ars this time (only one glass but I then noticed he had enormously dilated pupils) and had a very clear Belladonna picture, which I gave dry 30C with perfect response in less than 15 minutes. I think that Bell state was in response to the Benadryl he was given to help counteract the Reglan.

        I was quite elated that the rather large dose (or multiple fast repeats, without stirring in between) not only took care of the drug effect and his original complaint but had a very rapid deep, and at this point months later, long-lasting effect. He no longer cares about losing this high stress union job (the foreman didn't let him come back because he thought it was heat stroke sx) and now he has a secure job doing what he trained to do instead of something new, very close to home, which suits him much better than changing job sites constantly. If I had stopped with a few doses he might have also responded, but due to the fact that he would have required an emergency psychiatric admission if he didn't respond I gambled that we could keep dosing until the remedy was able to "match and then some" the intensity of the distress. What is kind of odd to me is he doesn't seem even remotely like a typical Arsenicum, so I am curious why it seemingly permanently helped his chronic anxiety disorder (which he hid so well that I was never aware of it in the years he had worked on my little farm). That is a good lesson for me not to "judge a book by its cover."

        Kris

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: LM

          If another remedy picture emerges after an LM dose, you must wonder if you should change the remedy. The LM do not aggravate, but gently push the pt. So an aggravation of this type, could be the other remedy picture shouting for attention. If it keeps up for a few days, I would change the remedy to match the new picture.

          Melanie Grimes, RSHom CCH.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: LM

            Dear Melanie,

            LMs *can* aggravate, and it is NOT always gentle!!!!! This is IMO a dangerous myth. I say this because of my first-ever experience with LMs (on my then-toddler son), which could easily have been my *last* experience, as it was god-awful!

            Best wishes,
            Shannon

            Comment


            • #7
              LM's

              LM's definitely can aggravate like any other remedy. They are not that gentle.

              If I saw a whole new picture appear after an LM or any other remedy, I would not act on it right away- many brief pictures of remedies can appear and disappear- you only prescribe on them when they body calls out for help and a new picture has appeared. Or when a picture has gradually appeared and the present remedy is not working quite as well as it had been. It is tricky sometimes knowing when to jump ship from a present remedy to the next one- but unless there is a relapse involved it is not usually a decision that has to be made quickly.

              I have had many patients make the mistake of drinking the whole dilution glass, which is no big deal but have not seen any of them do much better on that then on a normally given dose. But lets think it through. The whole dilution glass dose is a stronger dose- and if that was right- then you can make the dose stronger in other ways- you can up the succussions, or give more teaspoons from the dilution glass or eliminate a dilution glass and give the dose directly from the bottle or go up in potency or you can let them take the whole dilution glass.

              Steve

              Steve Waldstein RSHom (NA) CCH PCH
              Aurora, CO
              Web: http://homeopathy-cures.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: LM's

                Hi Steve, list.

                Actually, the way I understand the Organon (same as the dilution of C's as suggested in the 5th) the dilution is just to make it possible to take the remedy repeatedly. The reason being: that by stirring it the potency or the nature of the remedy is changed just a little every time it is taken.

                Making it weaker or stronger does not seem to come into the picture.

                (Please correct me if I am wrong - not by your or any other person's opinion but by quoting what Hahnemann himself said about it or pointing me to the relevant aphors)

                Thinking it through it would seem reasonable. At the dilution of the high C potencies (by high I mean starting about C30) - although it would also apply to even C3 - the further dilution of dissolving into a glass of water (or even the 3rd etc. glass) would barely make any difference.

                It bears considering whether that would not also apply to the "strength" of the dose.

                I have read a lot of posts etc. pointing to different experience - but then I have also read a lot, from other therapeuts/in different countries, that seems to confirm what I am saying.

                Actually, the experience with LM's and "plussed" C's has not been that extensive to make a final judgement. As to the LM's specifically, there seems to have been very little experience either in India or in the English-speaking countries. Most of the experience appears to have been in Germany/Switzerland, perhaps Austria. And there I have not read much of such caution before the homeopaths there became strongly influenced by the English-language, modern (none of the old homeopaths of course used LM's) authors.

                And, from what I have read, the American/Indian etc. old homeopaths did not use the plussing methods to any extent either (JW - any different knowledge?). Thus the experience with them seems also te be rather limited (it seems the 5th Organon never got very influential or even known in Germany et al.)

                Regards

                Luise

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: LM's

                  Originally posted by Luise
                  Making it weaker or stronger does not seem to come into the picture.
                  Originally posted by Luise

                  (Please correct me if I am wrong - not by your or any other person's opinion but by quoting what Hahnemann himself said about it or pointing me to the relevant aphors)
                  Hi Luise,

                  I can tell you from hard experience that sometimes "weaker or stronger" *does* matter, a great deal! One set of examples (tho not mine) are the folks who need to move on to successive dilution glasses. My personal example is (again) my awful introductory experience, when my then-two-year-old son was prescribed Med LM-1 in over-frequent, adult-sized doses. Within minutes after each dose he sort of went nuts--frantically hyperactive and nearly impossible to get thru to. Each reaction lasted for nearly 24 hours (and I'd been told to re-dose daily!). Once I cut his dose back by 1/4, he no longer had any bad reaction afterwards (and dose needed repeating only every four days, not daily).

                  The difference in response between one tsp. from the dosing bottle (into 4 oz water, and 1 tsp per dose) and 1/4 tsp from the dosing bottle (all the rest the same) was HUGE!

                  Best,
                  Shannon

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    LM1 (wasRe: LM's)

                    Hi Shannon, List,

                    Originally posted by Shannon
                    I can tell you from hard experience that sometimes "weaker or stronger" *does* matter, a great deal!...
                    I realize that there have been such experiences.


                    While this actually was not the topic of my post - I changed the "subject" therefore, - I see 2 possibilities:

                    One is close to the original thread and is a question: at that time you did not know anything about homeopathy and dosing and LM's? I.e. you were not apprehensive about the prescription (so that this apprehension might have transferred itself to your still very young son and brought about the reaction)?

                    Close to the previous thread for the reason that it discusses the difference a further dilution may - or may not - make.

                    ----

                    The second point concerns the LM1 specifically - and a possibility why the experiences I had known about before discussing this on the list were so different.

                    It could be because all these homeopaths in Switzerland and Germany, had started with higher LMs - i.e. LM 6 or LM 12 or LM18. Perhaps it was for that reason that those therapeuts did not use the LM1.

                    The LM1 is not at all a "high" potency. If comparable to the C pots at all it would correspond to a potency somewhat lower than the C6 - it would not even be beyond Losschmidt's number. (You can check that out for yourself by reading aphor 270)

                    It is well recognized that low potencies (and the C6 IS a low potency by all reckonning) can aggravate - they are expected to, as a matter of fact.

                    Actually also, the deciding difference between C potencies and LMs is, at LM1, barely, if at all, present yet. This you can also check out for yourself in this aphor.

                    So it is well possible that the mildness of the LM potencies will only manifest at higher potencies.

                    This would explain a lot!

                    Regards

                    Luise

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: LM1 (wasRe: LM's)

                      Hi Luise,

                      Mine interspersed:
                      Originally posted by Luise
                      While this actually was not the topic of my post - I changed the "subject" therefore, - I see 2 possibilities:
                      Originally posted by Luise

                      One is close to the original thread and is a question: at that time you did not know anything about homeopathy and dosing and LM's?
                      I was already fairly experienced with homeopathy, but hadn't ventured into LMs.
                      Originally posted by Luise
                      I.e. you were not apprehensive about the prescription (so that this apprehension might have transferred itself to your still very young son and brought about the reaction)?
                      No. Nor did I have any reason to expect the change from reducing the dose to be as dramatic as it was.

                      Originally posted by Luise
                      Close to the previous thread for the reason that it discusses the difference a further dilution may - or may not - make.
                      (?)

                      Originally posted by Luise
                      The second point concerns the LM1 specifically - and a possibility why the experiences I had known about before discussing this on the list were so different.
                      Originally posted by Luise
                      It could be because all these homeopaths in Switzerland and Germany, had started with higher LMs - i.e. LM 6 or LM 12 or LM18. Perhaps it was for that reason that those therapeuts did not use the LM1.
                      That is an interesting idea. So you're suggesting maybe higher LMs, tho "deeper", are also more gentle and less prone to "overdose"? (Anyone have experience to address this?)

                      Originally posted by Luise
                      The LM1 is not at all a "high" potency. If comparable to the C pots at all it would correspond to a potency somewhat lower than the C6 - it would not even be beyond Losschmidt's number. (You can check that out for yourself by reading aphor 270)
                      I don't think it's accurate to compare the potency scales strictly on basis of their respective dilution ratios...


                      Originally posted by Luise
                      It is well recognized that low potencies (and the C6 IS a low potency by all reckonning) can aggravate - they are expected to, as a matter of fact.
                      ?? This I hadn't ever heard. Can you say any more about it? I have (only twice) seen 200c aggravate when actually a much higher potency was indicated (young and vigorous child, *very* strong symptoms, very clear picture; by the guidelines I was taught, 10M would have been easily appropriate but I "wimped out" with the 200c, only to find in the weeks/months afterwards that 10M did its job quicker and smoother, with no aggravation whatever. And sure, it could be that the 200 "paved the way" but that is not the way it seemed.) But I haven't ever seen or had a 6 or 12 (or thereabouts) aggravate. I wonder if that's because I re-dose "as needed" rather than on a schedule? Or would that not be the issue...


                      Originally posted by Luise
                      Actually also, the deciding difference between C potencies and LMs is, at LM1, barely, if at all, present yet. This you can also check out for yourself in this aphor.
                      In what way? 270 gives directions for making a remedy, but what do you mean that they are barely different?


                      Originally posted by Luise
                      So it is well possible that the mildness of the LM potencies will only manifest at higher potencies.
                      Okay, and interesting possibility. I'll have to start experimenting with the higher LMs, thanks!


                      Shannon

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        RE: LM's and such

                        Dr. Luc de Schepper's latest two books, Hahnemann Revisited (available in paperback, I believe) and Achieving and Maintaining the Simillimum have a lot to say in English about the 5th and 6th editions and LMs' use etc. More info on his website, no doubt...

                        He certainly uses and recommends LMs and has read Hahnemann extensively in the original German and French. He talks about using "5th edition" dilutions in up to 6 "cups" for sensitive people, but also about using tablespoon-sized doses for some people, I believe.

                        A layperson's experience with taking more than was intended: We were at Disneyworld with kid and my husband, who is easily seasick complained bitterly about even watching the rides. I had my emergency kit so I put a couple of pellets of Cocculus 30x in his water bottle and asked him to sip and "succuss" before sipping again. He doesn't "believe in homeopathy" so he just guzzled about 2/3 of the almost full bottle. But he was not nauseated or dizzy again for the next 3-4 days we were there.

                        Teresa

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: LM's

                          Dear Louise,

                          I am basing this on experience not theory. (which is not to put down theory). I have used LM's extensively from LM1 up to LM 250. I have not noticed any difference in ability to produce aggravations based upon the potency. Though in general people tend to aggravate most with the first dose they receive- I have seen aggravations whenever a person takes a dose before they need one and when they increase the succussions too high.

                          There seem to be many factors which effect the dose of LM's or C potencies in water. The dose definitely matters- as anyone who uses them extensively finds out.

                          By the way while LM1 is considered to be a very low dose- I have had 3 patients who were totally permanently cured (at lest as of a few years now in 2 cases) by one dose of a LM1.

                          Steve

                          Steve Waldstein RSHom (NA) CCH PCH

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Steve:
                            There seem to be many factors which effect the dose of LM's or C potencies in water. The dose definitely matters- as anyone who uses them extensively finds out.
                            HI,
                            Wuold you be able to differentiate in your experience the sensitivity/response to C potencies against those of the LM's? As in which situations call for LM potencies and which ones the C potencies.
                            thanks,
                            leela
                            http://www.homeopathy2health.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: LM1 (wasRe: LM's)

                              Hi Shannon,

                              Originally posted by Shannon
                              Originally posted by Luise
                              The second point concerns the LM1 specifically - and a possibility why the experiences I had known about before discussing this on the list were so different.
                              Originally posted by Shannon
                              Originally posted by Luise

                              It could be because all these homeopaths in Switzerland and Germany, had started with higher LMs - i.e. LM 6 or LM 12 or LM18. Perhaps it was for that reason that those therapeuts did not use the LM1.
                              That is an interesting idea. So you're suggesting maybe higher LMs, tho "deeper", are also more gentle and less prone to "overdose"? (Anyone have experience to address this?)
                              Well, it is an idea, it is a possibility.

                              There must be **some** explanation that all the books I have read by those German/Swiss homeopaths and what they taught in seminars - homeopaths who had used the LMs for decades in their practice - alsmost exclusively stressed the fact (or what they considered to be fact): *that the LMs are the mildest kinds of homeopathic potencies imagineable and that real bad aggravations practically never occur. Any aggrs. that do occur are easily managed. That it is ok and desirable to give the LMs daily or every other day or so in a routine fashin unless some aggravation does occur - in which case there should be a pause, then give the same remedy in the same poteny again, only somewhat less often and/or perhaps smaller dose.*

                              This is in straight contradiction to what I have read on this list.

                              There MUST be SOME explanation for this!!!

                              Or, we really have to reconsider our ideas on homeopathy. The only other explanation seems to be that you get what you - the homeopath - expects!

                              But this does not seem to be true for the case of your son - although, of course, what you described may well fall into the concept of "homeopthic first aggravation". It may be that the German homeopaths I learned from expected things like this as a matter of course. Would be like breaking out into a rash or something like this, on the mental plane.

                              The relevant thing about such a "first aggravation" is shown in its name: it does not last.

                              Originally posted by Shannon
                              Originally posted by Luise
                              The LM1 is not at all a "high" potency. If comparable to the C pots at all it would correspond to a potency somewhat lower than the C6 - it would not even be beyond Losschmidt's number. (You can check that out for yourself by reading aphor 270)
                              I don't think it's accurate to compare the potency scales strictly on basis of their respective dilution ratios...
                              This is true as far as the higher potencies are concerned, but at the LM1 stage this difference is very, very small yet!

                              Originally posted by Shannon
                              Originally posted by Luise
                              It is well recognized that low potencies (and the C6 IS a low potency by all reckonning) can aggravate - they are expected to, as a matter of fact.
                              ?? This I hadn't ever heard. Can you say any more about it? I have (only twice) seen 200c aggravate when actually a much higher potency was indicated (young and vigorous child, *very* strong symptoms, very clear picture; by the guidelines I was taught, 10M would have been easily appropriate but I "wimped out" with the 200c, only to find in the weeks/months afterwards that 10M did its job quicker and smoother, with no aggravation whatever. And sure, it could be that the 200 "paved the way" but that is not the way it seemed.) But I haven't ever seen or had a 6 or 12 (or thereabouts) aggravate. I wonder if that's because I re-dose "as needed" rather than on a schedule? Or would that not be the issue...
                              I do not know - especially since i have hardly ever used those low

                              potencies myself and also I have not studied them to any extent.

                              What I do know is that with the "low-potency-homeopaths" (including the combo people) the "homeopathic initial aggravation (as it is quite "offically" called) is expected as a propitious sign that the remedy is correct - is acting on the system.

                              Those low potencies (actually in the majority of cases they are x potencies, which means even a lot lower as far as dilution is concerned) are routinely given in frequencies of somewhere between 3 times a day to once a day. Therefore, whether or not the aggravations would be the result of the potency or of the frequency can hardly be decided.

                              Originally posted by Shannon
                              Originally posted by Luise
                              Actually also, the deciding difference between C potencies and LMs is, at LM1, barely, if at all, present yet. This you can also check out for yourself in this aphor.
                              In what way? 270 gives directions for making a remedy, but what do you mean that they are barely different?
                              For both - the C potencies and the LMs - the first 3 stages, which bring them to C3, are identical.


                              In the Organon this does not come out clearly, since in the 5th H. describes these stages for fluid original substances, in the the 6th he describes them for metals or such. But in his MM pura and MM of Chronic Disease he also describes them for metals,(you may refer to Ars. album in the MM pura, for Alumina in the MM of Chronic Diseases) - and the descriptions are identical.

                              The next step is different only in one respect:

                              For the C potencies he instructs to add a grain of this substance to *99 drops* of alcohol/water mixture, succuss - which would make it the C4. Then sugar globules would be moistened by this "fluid C4" to get the C4 globules.

                              For the LMs he instructs to add a grain of this substance to *50 000 drops* of the alcohol/water mixture. Then again sugar globules would be moistened, and those globules would be the LM1.

                              There may be more strokes involved in the succussion for the LM preparation and perhaps the globules may be smaller, so that there would be actually less of the diluted substance on one globule.

                              That so far is the only difference between LM and the C of equal solution *at that stage*, i.e. at the potency of LM1.

                              This would also explain the fact that after further dilution the action on your son was ok.

                              In a way you would have changed the LM1 into a LM3 - or some bastard variety of potency.

                              Now there is a big difference between a LM1 and a LM2 and LM3 (or its bastard variety). Naturally. There would be this same kind of difference between a C1 and a C2.

                              However, there is barely any difference between a C200 and a C201 - and probably not all that much difference between a LM18 and a LM19.

                              This may also play a part in the explanation.

                              Regards

                              Luise

                              Comment

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