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  • Joe and arnica

    Belief that a particular remedy has helped 'A' person and so it shall be of similar help to others is against the cardinal principle of 'like cures like'. Secondly, i wonder if anyone would think of using homeopathic remedies on a routine daily basis considering there are more than thousand odd remedies. I wish misleading impressions are not allowed by the moderator of this list. There are millions of websites to get the necessary attention and i hope this list is meant only for scientific and plausible deliberations. Improved state of health is no indication that a particular remedy is the reason behind the improvement. Simple prayers have proved far more effective in healing and this does not automatically lead to any proof. However Classical Homeopathy cannot be adulterated by whims and fancies and especially since Arnica is already a proved remedy.

    Dr Paraki

  • #2
    Re: Re: Joe De Livera's use of Arnica

    I think that is the heart of the problem--that it is not really homeopathy, and actually goes against some basic principles of homeopathic prescribing--in recommending that "everyone try it" we've sidestepped issues of individualization (to the discomfort of two for whom it did *not* work), have set aside any consideration of symptom similarity (except the too-general one that arnica does cover various types of sleep disorder) and in particular, we're settling on long-term palliation, when our first goal should be *cure* (*change* the underlying state of health, such that ongoing supplementation becomes less necessary, or unnecessary).

    Joe-I'm not saying this to criticize your own use; if something so simple is working so well for you, it's understandable why you are enthusiastic! But maybe it shouldn't be viewed as a "one-size-fits-all" idea sort of situation; and I definitely agree that it's a risky thing to recommend for "everyone". But--it's been an intriguing and thought-provoking discussion, so thank you!

    Shannon

    Comment


    • #3
      Joe is simply trying to tell his experience with Arnica. He never claimed that it will be useful for each and everybody. His feedback is that it is helping many people.

      May I know what is meant by 'clinical' symtoms? Are they to be accepted as symptoms or not?

      Perhaps, we will accept them, if a Kent or Clarke says it.!!

      Don't have preconceived notions. Materia Medica can be evolved continuously. All experiments should be welcome, and the results are to be verified.

      You can't scare away people, from telling their experiences. It is upto you to take it or leave it. Better still, experiment with what is being told, and tell your experience with it.

      When Joe said Nat.Phos 6X cures obesity, I tried, but it didn't help me. I told him about this. But, there are many people benifitted by it. Who, knows, one day, it may become the number one remedy for treatment of obesity.

      There are certain things called 'specifics' in homeopathy, and many believe in them, if not yourself.

      Is classical homeopathy a static one, where no more additions can be made, be it in enlarging materia medica, selection of potency, or methods of administration?

      Murthy

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Re: Joe De Livera's use of Arnica

        Joe De Livera's suggestion re. Arnica, may not help ALL. But if it helps some, it is brilliant. I am experimenting with this on myself - so far so good - I am experiencing, I think, some good feelings and an undisturbed sleep. Mind you, I am taking one No. 40 pill in the morning and one at night. Nothing negative to report, but some positive happenings. Will expand on this after ten days.

        Jeff Tikari

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Re: Joe De Livera's use of Arnica

          I meant to warn Joe about the qualified in one hand and wicked diversity of this list in the other. That has already showed its scope going from the demeaning and childishly demented statements of Richard Knapp all the way up to the no less unethical, disrespectful, censorful, and pseudo-elitist of Paraki.
          Needless is to say that a case report is also a form of scientific communication even in the context of the Principle of Similars and as a matter of fact as part of other kinds of empiric reports is not far for what other more seasoned practitioners of Homeopathy do as I am writing these lines.
          The invitation to generalize the experience in a world of adults with some sense of professionalism is taken or not depending on the personal interest of the readership. As a matter of fact that is what people do in the “scientific world”, where breakthroughs are meant to be considered, studied, repeated and experimented. That works also for the “proven remedies”, specially for the methodological intricacies of remedies considered as such after provings, toxicology reports, clinical and personal reports (do not forget Hering and Lachesis, he was not Sri Lankan though) and let us not forget that there is still a lot to learn from each remedy. I believe that it is not the same getting old has the same psycho-physiologic effect in a social group (ie. native American) that acknowledges ageing as a holly process than in other where it is dismissed, in the second “worse for aging” is seen as a non rare-peculiar nor strange symptom. To understand that, it is important to have a s
          ense of the physiopathology of ageing and stress, it is call Gerontology.
          It maybe a simple statement, but if we join those who study the quality of life, and the morbidity of ageing might consider the epidemic genius of Arnica in it. Almost everybody who practice Homeopathy end up “grouping” individuals in a scope that goes from 50 or less to 200-300 remedies in the best of the scenarios. There is no one remedy for each person unless you “use” each person as a base for a remedy.
          I have to say that I have learned a lot from the list through the years. I have limited my intereventions to the reports of our work in the use of Homeopathy with the survivors of the tsunami, but felt the need to respond for the sake of somebody with whom I shared the possibilities of this homeopathic forum in terms of education and exchange in Homeopathy.

          Rene R. Guarnaluse Arce.
          MD, sp. Endocrinology, Havana, Cuba.
          Dipl. Hom.
          NY. USA

          Comment


          • #6
            Joe and arnica

            It is hard to believe:

            Ever since I have been on the lists I have heard arnica recommended for all kinds of things - it also seems everyone has taken arnica freely for all kinds of things - all potencies - and never a peep from anyone about adverse reactions.

            Now Joe recommended it for sleeplessness - and after one measly pill of C6 there occur frightful symptoms never heard of before when taken for other reasons. Enough to sound serious warnings about individualization and the entire other hallowed principles of homeopathy.

            Anyone taking this serious should forget about taking remedies as precautions for flu, malaria whatever.

            I shudder to think what will happen to those poor unsuspecting vacationers taking cantharis for sunburn without first consulting their trusted classical homeopath for their own individually chosen remedy.

            After all- it was not just arnica having those dire effects: poor old Na. phos did the same.

            L.O.L.!!

            Regards

            Luise

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Joe and arnica

              Are you laughing out load from sheer horror, or because you think something so serious is really funny, or maybe a nervous reaction regarding your own words.

              Many people, myself included, have frequently warned against routine use of ANY rx (on various homeopathy lists) - so plenty of peeps.

              As for prophylactic prescribing that's another story.

              Joy

              Comment


              • #8
                RE: Re: Joe De Livera's use of Arnica

                Originally posted by Rene
                "demeaning and childishly demented statements of Richard Knapp"
                I try to make the medicine fit the case. I'm not sure what to use for humorless sanctimony.

                Richard Knapp

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Joe De Livera's use of Arnica

                  Originally posted by j tikari
                  Joe De Livera's suggestion re. Arnica, may not help ALL. But if it helps some, it is brilliant.
                  "Brilliant"? Inventing the light bulb was brilliant. Repeating a remedy ad.

                  infin. is...not so "brilliant".

                  Originally posted by j tikari
                  I am experimenting with this on myself - so far so good - I am experiencing, I think, some good feelings and an undisturbed sleep.
                  "I think"? Then take a tablet of Kali phos. 6x every night, or any number of remedies, and compare...then, a double-blind test...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: RE: Re: Joe De Livera's use of Arnica

                    Originally posted by Richard
                    demeaning and childishly demented statements of Richard Knapp
                    I try to make the medicine fit the case. I'm not sure what to use for humorless sanctimony.
                    Not everybody have to laugh at our "humor" (pus). Hurting try towards somebody who treated me like a father. My advise, if you do not know what to use for something do not use anything.


                    In Spanish we have a saying "Shoemaker to your shoes", keep analysing databases....

                    Rene R. Guarnaluse Arce.
                    MD, sp. Endocrinology Havana, Cuba
                    Dipl. Hom
                    Ny, USA

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Luise Kunkle

                      I shudder to think what will happen to those poor unsuspecting vacationers taking cantharis for sunburn without first consulting their trusted classical homeopath for their own individually chosen remedy.

                      Luise
                      If you feel a wrong advice is given, tell your opinion, in the same thread, immediately, after you notice. That way, the seeker will have the benefit of different opinions.

                      There is no point, in waiting till now, and joining the stone throwers. It is nothing but a mob mentality.

                      Murthy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Joe De Livera's use of Arnica

                        "Brilliant"? Inventing the light bulb was brilliant. Repeating a remedy ad. infin. is...not so "brilliant".
                        I repeat - it was brilliant! quite unlike your post.

                        Jeff Tikari

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Repeating a remedy ad. infin. is daring, if not briiliant.

                          You must be thankful, for Joe, for having done this experiment boldly. If, you are really interested in the advancement of homeopathy, probe him, as to what are the effects of taking a medicine like that.

                          He says, it benefitted him. Do you have any cases, that got spoiled by repeating Arnica, or that have become verse, if somebody took Arnica 6c daily?

                          What is your experience regarding aggravations with Arnica 6C? Don't say I read like this, I read like that. Alll of us read the same books. Tell us something concrete out of your own experience.

                          If you don't have any, better listen to people, who are talking with self experience. Foolish comments will only show your ignorance.

                          Murthy

                          .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Joe De Livera's use of Arnica

                            Originally posted by Rene
                            Not everybody have to laugh at our "humor" (pus). Hurting try towards somebody who treated me like a father. My advise, if you do not know what to use for something do not use anything.
                            Originally posted by Rene
                            In Spanish we have a saying "Shoemaker to your shoes", keep analysing databases....
                            Rene,

                            Joe's otherhealth.com profile states "Occupation: Chairman Chain of Department Stores", maybe you can extend your job analogy to him.

                            Having actually met Joe you can verify his claims from at least a superficial visual standpoint, wouldn't you as a Dipl Hom question daily use of any 6C potency?

                            Is it possible when you met Joe he was in an Arnica state which contributed to what you termed "fatherly" treatment?

                            Allopathically, many medications require decreasing dosage as one ages. Does this imply homeopathically increasing remedy dosage?

                            Here's some info on overdosing on remedies and remedy duration, courtesy of Gabe Rottler:

                            http://www.curantur.de/English/Artic...epetition.html

                            http://www.curantur.de/English/Artic.../duration.html

                            I took a dose of Arnica 6C a few days ago, it did provide deeper sleep and I awoke with muscle aches. The sleep and aches are similar to after I work out at the gym having done a-lot of weight machines. I still feel that dose is active and no need to repeat it and wouldn't so soon because I know there is continuing remedy action which is not perceptible.

                            Since you are an MD with a Dipl Hom, how many years have you studied classical homeopathy and where did you earn this title from?

                            My experience with MD's cum homeopath is that they are jack of both trades and master of maybe allopathy but usually not classical homeopathy basicallly because they THINK LIKE ALLOPATHS.

                            This may explain your support of Joe's suggestions since you are practicing in both worlds.

                            Did you happen to talk with Luc De Schepper about Joe's youthful appearance? There may be little if any info on Arnica usage in LM potencies but wouldn't it be homeopathically safer to use an LM daily vs. a C?

                            Azucar!

                            Susan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Joe De Livera's use of Arnica

                              Tried to respond below.


                              Joe has not made fun of anybody and his experiences can be taken if you want like the ones coming from an "informed patient", from the times of Hering up to now, people use "family kits". It is not the first time in this list that somebody asking for help with a sympton or a diagnosis to take care of and is politely invited to look for an appropiate recollection of the symptoms or other civilized suggestions

                              Originally posted by Susan
                              Having actually met Joe you can verify his claims from at least a superficial visual standpoint, wouldn't you as a Dipl Hom question daily use of any 6C potency?
                              Originally posted by Susan
                              Is it possible when you met Joe he was in an Arnica state which contributed to what you termed "fatherly" treatment?
                              To value the validity of his claim in depth I would have to interview Joe and unfortunately I did not have enough time to address what was at stake at the moment (tsunami relief). The "fatherly" attitude is hard to discern from the average Sri Lankan hospitality or the committment shared with the victims of the disaster.
                              Originally posted by Susan
                              Allopathically, many medications require decreasing dosage as one ages. Does this imply homeopathically increasing remedy dosage?
                              I do not know your training in Homeopathy (even if you asked for mine), but according to the Arnt-Schulz Law it does not imply anything...

                              Originally posted by Susan
                              Here's some info on overdosing on remedies and remedy duration, courtesy of Gabe Rottler
                              Thanks...


                              Originally posted by Susan
                              I took a dose of Arnica 6C a few days ago, it did provide deeper sleep and I awoke with muscle aches. The sleep and aches are similar to after I work out at the gym having done a-lot of weight machines. I still feel that dose is active and no need to repeat it and wouldn't so soon because I know there is continuing remedy action which is not perceptible.
                              That is where the individualization takes place, you testimonial is as important as any, and no less or more. How old are you chronologically? 46-59 years old a different story would be when your biological age'll kick in, with less cartilage, osteophytes and the rest of the "wear and tear" effects. At that point every movement is a potential trauma. That can be an example of an acute expression of a chronic condition.


                              Originally posted by Susan
                              Since you are an MD with a Dipl Hom, how many years have you studied classical homeopathy and where did you earn this title from?
                              I can respond to your question even if you assume the questioning position without setting your background straight (are you another database analyser?). In the late 80s a group of health proffesionals started taking courses with proffesors coming from Mexico (Proceso Sanchez Ortega), Argentina (Eizayaga, Paschero), Europe (LMI). In the early 90s the head of the Homeopathic Faculty of Riberao Preto in Sao Paolo organized the first 2 year diploma course that was followed by a local diploma course. A bit later, I had the opportunity to coordinate with HWB-NA the visit of Dr. Richard Moskowitz, Karl Robinson and others to support the process of continuous education. You should read the reports of the Liga Letter (are you a member?), it is difficult but you can practice Homeopathy in any health institution. Scientific reports (clinical and basic) about Homeopathy have been communicated in conferences from the institution to the Panamerican level. You can go and teach if you are so concern or willing to help.

                              Originally posted by Susan
                              My experience with MD's cum homeopath is that they are jack of both trades and master of maybe allopathy but usually not classical homeopathy basicallly because they THINK LIKE ALLOPATHS.
                              Like any generalization that one is wrong. I have to say that by being an endocrinologist my committment is more with the identification of functional patterns than with an ALLOPATHIC APPROACH, and definitely helped the fact that there is not much conflict in the fact that you have to give insulin to an insulin-dependent person, but you can also diminish the need with the appropiate remedy.


                              IT IS A DIFFERENT SCENARIO, where the limits are given by the mindset of the practitioner and some temporary material constraints. Like any classical homeopath I try to seize the totality of the symptoms, use my repertory (the Eizayagas translation of the Kent's first and Radar and Mc Repertory later on)and Materia Medica to find the only one remedy I think is the closest to the similimum. That is common to what many homeopaths do around the world do, the difference is that also I submitted a basic research study done in my facility (Morphometric Study of the Tuberoinfundibular Dopaminergic Neurons of rats treated with Lachesis Mutus 200 C) and had the opportunity of having a ward where the patients under homeopathic treatment were supervised that was my Homeopathic Hospital project) and books and scientific reports about Homeopathy were discussed as well with the other ALLOPATHS. It was a superb opportunity to exchange ideas about the future of Homeopathy with Paolo Bellavite at the University of Verona in Italy. I also met Jaques Imberechts but missed Jacques Benveniste, and now he is gone.

                              I feel blessed with the opportunity of learning Homeopathy as an art and as a source of infinite knowledge in social, physiological, biophysical and quantum mechanics terms just to break the unity for you.

                              Originally posted by Susan
                              This may explain your support of Joe's suggestions since you are practicing in both worlds.
                              All I am doing is trying to understand from his "own words" the depth of the homeopathic "message". It comes more from the capacity of observation than from the "support" I want to understand what is behind the fact that he feels better with a daily dose and worse if he stops it and you did not react like this. I am listening....


                              Originally posted by Susan
                              Did you happen to talk with Luc De Schepper about Joe's youthful appearance? There may be little if any info on Arnica usage in LM potencies but wouldn't it be homeopathically safer to use an LM daily vs. a C?
                              Theoretically yes, but why don't you try it and tell us what happens... I was coordinating the trip to Sri Lanka and that is what Luc and I talked about. I am committed to use Homeopathy for the sake of Humanity and not as a tool theological geographic determinism or any other egotistic reason for that matter.


                              My point is that Hahnemann was the first activist of Homeopathy it is all over the Organon and his life and many people are choosing to ignore that.

                              Originally posted by Susan
                              Azucar!
                              Azucar prieta is better!!


                              Comment

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