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  • eizayaga method

    dear colleagues,

    I am looking for more information on the posology (dose/potency system) as advocated by dr eizayaga.

    I could not find much info on this topic. (I did see the will taylor article on layers, though). all I know is that he started from 6C and repeated it and then worked up to 12C and then upto 30C.

    is there anyone here, who has studied with de eizayaga and is very familiar with his approach?

    I would like to know the frequency of repetition for 6C, 12C, 30C.

    did he follow a fixed protocol or did he individualise it?

    how long (on an average) did he use a potency, before moving to the next higher.

    does his system dissolve tumours / deal with chronic diseases / hypersensitive patients / psychiatric cases / cases taking allopathic medicines?

    what if the doses of 30C fail to cure completely? did he go to 200C or higher?

    did he talk about the "size of the dose" or gave random number of pills?

    dry or in water (as a single dose)?

    what was his potency for acutes?

    what about aggravations?

    any other relevant / important information about his dose / potency system?

    kindly reply to the homeolist or send a private email. your response will be much appreciated.

    sincerely thanking you for your kindness,
    dr manish

  • #2
    Re: eizayaga method

    Hi List,

    Originally posted by dr manish
    I am looking for more information on the posology (dose/potency system) as advocated by dr eizayaga.
    Please do post it - I have been interested in exactly the same questions for a long time.


    Regards
    Luise

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: eizayaga method

      Hi Manish,

      I haven't studied his method, but will share what I recall from a past teacher who *had* studied extensively with him, and told us bits...
      Originally posted by dr manish
      ... I would like to know the frequency of repetition for 6C, 12C, 30C.
      My understanding is that he (at least at that time) gave the remedy daily; presumably might have been more often for organic pathology.


      Originally posted by dr manish
      did he follow a fixed protocol or did he individualise it?
      He would begin at the "level" indicated by the symptoms and situation--usually either pathological (for any ailment involving tissue changes, organic pathology), or functional. Beyond that, tho, I don't know.


      Originally posted by dr manish
      how long (on an average) did he use a potency, before moving to the next higher.
      My understanding is that he would stay with a potency until it had begun to lose its effectiveness.


      Originally posted by dr manish
      does his system dissolve tumours / deal with chronic diseases / hypersensitive patients / psychiatric cases / cases taking allopathic medicines?
      Most definitely!!! I had *meant* to get more familiar with his method, as I'd been impressed by my teacher's description of how he developed his method. According to her, he practiced by a strictly "classical" method for some 40 years first, during which time he became discouraged by certain cases which he wasn't able to cure--cases of heavy pathology. He developed his method of "lesional" prescribing in working with these, and found it superior for that sort of situation. But about further specifics I don't know.


      Originally posted by dr manish
      what if the doses of 30C fail to cure completely? did he go to 200C or higher?
      Originally posted by dr manish
      did he talk about the "size of the dose" or gave random number of pills?
      About these two I didn't hear anything specific, but I assume that he used high potencies for functional cases, and probably for the "constitutional" (per his use of the term, which is different) and "miasmatic" layers too, but I couldn't swear to that.

      Originally posted by dr manish
      dry or in water (as a single dose)?
      She never mentioned water dosing at all, other than with LMs, so I feel pretty confident that he used dry doses.


      Wish I had more information, and I look forward to hearing if someone else has more!

      Shannon

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: eizayaga method

        Dear Shannon & Manish,

        We have a phrase in Tamil Language- To check the extent of boiling of a pot of rice, test just one grain. I read- though second hand from Julian Winston, Will Taylor and Dr Luc about Eizayaga. His conclusions- "constitutional drug just prevents diseases", "Homeopathy is not a religion, no need to follow Hahnemann to the letter" , plus the absence of the recognition of vital force and the consequence - the repetition of dry doses indiscriminately all made
        me go away from further enquiry of his "method". Justifiably, Dr Luc has blasted him as "diseased".

        Rgds
        Venkat

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: eizayaga method

          Originally posted by dr manish
          I am looking for more information on the posology (dose/potency system) as advocated by dr eizayaga.
          Originally posted by dr manish
          I could not find much info on this topic. (I did see the will taylor article on layers, though). all I know is that he started from 6C and repeated it and then worked up to 12C and then upto 30C.
          And 9C, 15, 18, 24. And (sometimes) beyond 30C, still repeating frequently. Eizayaga held that once the body became inured to a repeated potency level, the next level up could be repeated, even up to 10M or higher, when that protocol was undertaken from the start. The low ramp-up protocol was for pathology cases. One dose high and wait for functional (mostly "healthy") cases.
          Originally posted by dr manish
          is there anyone here, who has studied with de eizayaga and is very familiar with his approach?
          took about 10 seminars with him 86-88.

          Originally posted by dr manish
          I would like to know the frequency of repetition for 6C, 12C, 30C.
          from 1 to 5 times a day individualized.

          Originally posted by dr manish
          did he follow a fixed protocol or did he individualise it?
          Both. Usually started 6C "n" times daily (not plussed) with repetition dependent on individual or disease, and ramped up over time, with the ramp-up juncture being when improvement stopped (case stalled, pt inured to that potency level). Pt modulates frequency themselves based on comfort level in severe pathology. If potency too strong even at 6C, use olfaction from water or reduce frequency to < once a day.

          Originally posted by dr manish
          how long (on an average) did he use a potency, before moving to the next higher.
          see above Typically maintained a potency level for a month or *much longer* depending on case and disease.
          Originally posted by dr manish
          does his system dissolve tumours / deal with chronic diseases / hypersensitive patients / psychiatric cases / cases taking allopathic medicines?
          These are not exclusive to Eizayaga's methods of course, but yes. The system is aimed at pathological cases--and *avoiding aggravations*. It is akin to LM method, but Eizayaga developed his system before LM revival which hit the US in the late 80s, Europe much earlier, not sure when hit Argentina. Yet centesimal repeated remains a good option even for those who use LM's, depending on case and rx availability. Can use centisimals low and plussed from a dropper bottle (which is how I use his method when I use it). But the method works fine without plussing, despite concerns about repetition.


          But if you have the wrong remedy, this can cause problems in cases and thus using eizayaga posology requires more care and feeding/monitoring of client, about the same as LM.

          Eizayaga used autonosode (blood) in some cases and intercurrent nosode (typical case) usually.

          Used isodes of allopathic drugs with simultaneous slow weaning from allopathic in some cases in which the allopathic was obstacle to cure as necessary.

          Otherwise used main rx with slow weaning from allopathic.

          Used remedies alongside allopathics when necessary.

          Originally posted by dr manish
          what if the doses of 30C fail to cure completely? did he go to 200C or higher?
          yes.

          Originally posted by dr manish
          did he talk about the "size of the dose" or gave random number of pills?
          never spoke of size of dose as like LMs, which are a different dilution/succussion ratio and thus a different kind of remedy with different properties than centesimals, though you might ask D. Little about how much difference it makes with centesimals.

          Originally posted by dr manish
          dry or in water (as a single dose)?
          Think he would use either dropper or dry.

          Originally posted by dr manish
          what was his potency for acutes?
          Nothing atypical. Eizayaga's posology method was for chronic cases as an alternative to Kentian style "one dose and wait" widely practiced in Argentina even in pathological cases before he came on the scene there.

          Originally posted by dr manish
          what about aggravations?
          his system was primarily designed to avoid them.

          [/QUOTE]any other relevant / important information about his dose / potency system?[/QUOTE]usually a 30 or 200 intercurrent nosode. Blood autonosode starting at 6C or 7C and plussed ramping up in the same way as any remedy-- either concurrent with main rx or by itself. The autonosode usually applied in severe chronic cases; esp. certain diseases (e.g. AIDs, any blood or systemic disease, esp if infectious). Autonosode of other tissues possible if available.

          You have probably seen this article on Eizayaga method of categorized repertorization by Julian Winston, though does not cover potency...

          http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeop...ga_layers.html


          Best,
          Andy

          Comment


          • #6
            Fw: Eizayaga Method

            Hi Shannon and all:

            I don't know about Eizayaga's methods but I do know that he cured one of my best friends of breast cancer. 22 years ago she and I were sharing an apartment in Toronto and when she developed breast cancer, got 2 opinions at 2 different hospitals - world renowned hospitals. Both said a radical mastectomy would be essential to save her life. They booked her an operation date at one of these hospitals for December of that year; I immediately booked her an appointment with my homeopath in New York City. The idea was: she'd have 4 weeks to "see what happened".

            At that time, Dr. Eizayaga was visiting my homeopath a couple of times a year from Argentina, to aid in the most difficult cases. He was there that day and when she and I met him, we were astounded at his vitality - he looked amazing for his age - he would have been around 60 at the time and sure didn't look it. Anyhow, they deliberated for some time on my friend's condition and gave her two remedies to take (not concurrently). She took the first remedy in the New York office, but on the plane ride back, she was stunned to feel what she described as cold spikes going through the affected breast. That sensation lasted on and off for about a week. 3 weeks later she consented to an operation - but ONLY to having the glands removed near her armpit. That was biopsied, she had several CAT scans, and they found her cancer free. The doctors could not believe the cancer had disappeared. She is still cancer free 22 years later at the age of 63.

            So no, I can't speak to Dr. Eizayaga's prescribing methods, but I can attest to the fact that he saved my friend's life. On the note of the remedies he gave her for her particular set of symptoms: Conium 30C, twice and then Nat Mur 200C once a week for the three weeks, if memory serves me.

            Martha

            Comment


            • #7
              RE: eizayaga method

              Venkat,

              All sounds pretty enlightened to me except the last part - the repetition of dry doses indiscriminately.

              Richard Knapp

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: eizayaga method

                And yet from what my past teacher told me (and I have little information about him from anywhere else), his results were very good, and using that method he became able to cure cases that he had been previously unable to. Do you have any reason to believe that this isn't true?

                Thanks,
                Shannon

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Fw: Eizayaga Method

                  Hi Martha,

                  and it did not bother your friend nor you at all that she was cured of her cancer by a diseased therapist using a non-Hahnemannian method?

                  Wondering
                  Luise

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Fw: Eizayaga Method

                    Hi Luise:

                    I don't know how to respond to that one. No, obviously it could not bother us at the time 22 years ago, when there was no forum to discuss this sort of thing - no internet; there was nothing but conferences. I know several homeopaths who do put great stock in his teachings and let's face it; my friend was cured and has been cured for the past 22 years and her doctors are still scratching their heads. My current homeopath concurred with the remedies at the time and I trust his judgement implicitly. As to Dr. Eizayaga being a "diseased therapist", well, that is a subjective impression and the thing is: he's not around to defend himself -- or his methods -- is he?

                    Best regards,
                    Martha

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      RE: Eizayaga method

                      Originally posted by AndyH
                      But the method works fine without plussing, despite concerns about repetition.
                      From personal experience, I would have concerns about daily repetition of the dry dose. I was given a choice of Eizayaga method or single-dose dry by my homeopath this time last year. I chose Eizayaga.

                      About a month of 6c AM (one pellet) and PM (one pellet) gave considerable improvement of my rheumatic pain. Then I was told to continue same routine with 30c potency. After several weeks on that, the rheumatic pains were completely gone, however, I developed a clear--and very unpleasant-- symptom of the remedy which was totally new to me. I did not know it was a symptom of that remedy until later, but when I stopped taking the remedy it did the symptom did taper off. I would call that a clear concern about repetition.

                      On the other hand, the homeopath treating me jumped from 6c to 30c, leaving out the intermittent steps that were mentioned. Maybe that was the cause of the problem? (I was being monitored every 3 weeks, but Christmas/New Year intervened, causing me to go 4 weeks or more on the daily 30c dose, and I am probably, as that homeopath apparently remarked, a sensitive patient.)

                      The same remedy is still working in single dry doses a year later--though not without a lot of problems with aggravations, especially after the 10M dose. Simillimum it must well be, IMO, but if I were less convinced of the benefits of H, I would have discontinued the treatment--or at least left that homeopath.

                      Teresa (in VA)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: eizayaga method

                        Hi Andy,

                        Originally posted by AndyH
                        And 9C, 15, 18, 24. And (sometimes) beyond 30C, still repeating frequently. Eizayaga held that once the body became inured to a repeated potency level, the next level up could be repeated, even up to 10M or higher, when that protocol was undertaken from the start. The low> ramp-up protocol was for pathology cases. One dose high and wait for functional (mostly "healthy") cases.
                        So presumably once the pathology had been reversed they'd be back to "functional" and would then proceed with infrequent high doses (of same or different remedy)?


                        Originally posted by AndyH
                        Originally posted by dr manish
                        ld like to know the frequency of repetition for 6C, 12C, 30C.
                        from 1 to 5 times a day individualized.
                        So he didn't ever use low potencies in functional cases?


                        Originally posted by AndyH
                        Originally posted by dr manish
                        did he follow a fixed protocol or did he individualise it?
                        Both. Usually started 6C "n" times daily (not plussed) with repetition dependent on individual or disease, and ramped up over time, with the ramp-up juncture being when improvement stopped (case stalled, pt inured to that potency level). Pt modulates frequency themselves based on comfort level in severe pathology. If potency too strong even at 6C, use olfaction from water or reduce frequency to < once a day.

                        Originally posted by AndyH
                        Originally posted by dr manish
                        how long (on an average) did he use a potency, before moving to the next higher.
                        see above Typically maintained a potency level for a month or *much longer* depending on case and disease.

                        Originally posted by AndyH
                        Originally posted by dr manish
                        does his system dissolve tumours / deal with chronic diseases / hypersensitive patients / psychiatric cases / cases taking allopathic medicines?
                        These are not exclusive to Eizayaga's methods of course, but yes. The system is aimed at pathological cases--and *avoiding aggravations*. It is akin to LM method, but Eizayaga developed his system before LM revival which hit the US in the late 80s, Europe much earlier, not sure when hit Argentina. Yet centesimal repeated remains a good option even for those who use LM's, depending on case and rx availability. Can use centisimals low and plussed from a dropper bottle (which is how I use his method when I use it). But the method works fine without plussing, despite concerns about repetition.
                        Andy, so you'd put water and/or alcohol in dropper bottle (2/3 full?), add single pellet, succuss, and give how much (drops? dropperful?) for a dose?

                        Originally posted by AndyH
                        But if you have the wrong remedy, this can cause problems in cases and thus using eizayaga posology requires more care and feeding/monitoring of client, about the same as LM.
                        You mean provings or accessory sxs? Do you find that this is less apt to happen with the succussed water method as above? In that case the remedy would simply lose effectiveness rather than bring on additional sxs?


                        Originally posted by AndyH
                        Eizayaga used autonosode (blood) in some cases and intercurrent nosode (typical case) usually.
                        Can you say anything about autonosodes, when they might be used and what role they play, anything else? (A subject that's come up here and there enough to tantalize me, but not inform!)


                        Thanks, Andy!
                        Shannon

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: eizayaga method

                          Originally posted by Shannon
                          So presumably once the pathology had been reversed they'd be back to "functional" and would then proceed with infrequent high doses (of same or different remedy)?
                          Yes, and that would be once they moved into the next layer, and if it was a functional (fundamental) layer and not another pathological one or a continuation of the treatment of the same pathology which was on the surface of the case. And if the pt was not considered low in VF or otherwise a risk if aggravation occurred (likely if it had been a severe pathology). If Eizayagas fundamental rx and lesional rx are the same rx, then the prognosis for the pathology is much better, and we have a typical overarching rx which we would consider a simillimum for the case as a whole, and not only for the pathology. Ramakrishnan uses the same type of method. Banerji somewhat different but also uses lesional rx.

                          Originally posted by Shannon
                          So he didn't ever use low potencies in functional cases?
                          Yes he did. Criteria were susceptibility to agg, tendency to antidote, strength of vital force, how much pathology there was previously, etc.

                          Originally posted by Shannon
                          Andy, so you'd put water and/or alcohol in dropper bottle (2/3 full?), add single pellet, succuss, and give how much (drops? dropperful?) for a dose?
                          All correct regarding my general procedure when I use this method (when pathological case or antidotable case, or low VF, and am not using LM. (This method does not require the precision that we use with LMs and which is necessary with that type of potency). Succussion 5-10, and a few drops in a glass of spring water.


                          Originally posted by Shannon
                          Originally posted by Andy
                          But if you have the wrong remedy, this can cause problems in cases and thus using eizayaga posology requires more care and feeding/monitoring of client, about the same as LM.
                          You mean provings or accessory sxs?
                          Yes, which will come up, if mildly, when repeating a 6C of the wrong rx for a month. So I no longer use this method unless I have to, and then keep close watch by having them call weekly. Usually with path cases one is keeping a close watch anyway (some cancer or other urgent cases -- daily).

                          Originally posted by Shannon
                          Do you find that this is less apt to happen with the succussed water method as above? In that case the remedy would simply lose effectiveness rather than bring on additional sxs?
                          Think proving would still happen if rx was wrong on repetition.


                          The issue with not succussing in the opinion of Jeremy Sherr is that each exactly the same) potency in succession will tend to cancel out the last one; while a plussed one is modified and will only create a new influence, not interact with the last dose. But that hypothesis, however satisfying, is only a hypothesis. One can do just what Eizayaga did, and his idea is that there is no cancellation, and my experience bore that out. He says if the next repetition of the correct remedy is not needed, there will typically be no resonance at all of the correct rx until the case relapses--if the case is started at the appropriate point near the bottom of the potency range and moves up only on relapse.

                          Eizayaga claimed that he determined the duration of action of low potencies in a typical path case requires 1-5 doses of 6C a day depending on the individual--most of the time this is 1-2 times a day. Starting at 9c or 12C he gave once a day. But every case different. Not routinism, but his system of path prescribing and avoiding aggravations. Eizagaya was a pathological prescriber more than a detailed psychological prescriber. However, though he spoke 5 languages fluently, I am sure we missed out on some of his prescribing expertise because he had to teach us in english and take demonstration cases in front of the class in english and not in his native spanish.
                          Originally posted by Shannon
                          Originally posted by Andy
                          Eizayaga used autonosode (blood) in some cases and intercurrent nosode (typical case) usually.
                          Can you say anything about autonosodes, when they might be used and what role they play, anything else? (A subject that's come up here and there enough to tantalize me, but not inform!)
                          I saw him use blood A.N. in AIDS only starting at 7C succussed but any blood dyscrasia would call for the blood autonosode if desired in serious cases (and AIDS cases he considered serious). Autonosode of diseased organ more difficult to make unless biopsy material available, which is less common.



                          Best
                          Andy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: eizayaga method

                            Originally posted by Andy
                            Autonosode of diseased organ more difficult to make unless biopsy material available, which is less common.
                            As a diseased organ is part of the whole, why wouldn't an autonosode of the individual's blood suffice, as it "represents" the whole? Plus a part, unto itself, cannot be diseased.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: eizayaga method

                              Originally posted by Richard
                              All sounds pretty enlightened to me except the last part - the repetition of dry doses indiscriminately.
                              Not indiscriminate, just more frequent than we are accustomed to.

                              BUT this is only (apparently) for cases of organic pathology / tissue changes, in other words deep and serious cases. Others have also found that more frequent repetition tends to be needed in this sort of situation.

                              Shannon

                              Comment

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