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  • Can homeopathy withstand scientific testing?

    Dear all,

    FYI:
    Article about the importance of homeopathy in veterinary practice:

    30 November 2004
    Can homeopathy withstand scientific testing?
    F.J. van Sluijs

    http://www.vetscite.org/

    Best,

    Gaby

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Gaby Rottler
    Germany
    rottler@curantur.de

    http://www.curantur.de
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





  • #2
    Science is bunk

    To paraphrase an old saying by Henry Ford. It has been shown on numerous occasions that money will buy the "right" results for the pharmaceutcal companies

    So what needs to be done ?. In the '40's & '50's with naive optimism it was thought that science had the answer to everything. With the huge success of antibiotics it was assumed that we could control Nature and push it to one side. That we knew better and could intervene in the body's workings to achieve the desired ends. Now it is realized that our interventions have done more harm than good. We set out to cure gonorrhea and end up with monstrous viral infections as the virus fight back. We also assist in the debasement of the immune system - leading to all types of immuno deficiency problems from asthma to AIDS.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The bedrock of 'science' is repeatability. If X does procedure Y in New York , then when Z follows that procedure in Melbourne or Rio , the results will be exactly the same . If this is not so then it is not 'science' !!. For the benefit of scientists lets say that , where human beings are concerned, this paradigm is useless. Extreme reaction to food/pollens/vaccines show that the spectrum of human variation is widening rapidly. What is really happening ?. It is now established that bacteria, virus , organisms of all kinds - THAT ARE GENETICALLY BASED are swapping bits of dna in order to change shape and be better able to meet the challenge of antibiotic or vaccine. The implication of this is that our external environment is an ever changing area that operates by the laws of chaos. It has no truck with fixed parameters [ without which science cannot operate ] the result being that the medical sciences have no answers to the problems confronting them - their paradigm is bankrupt!!.

    Comment


    • #3
      Another comprehensive book on the theme was published by Haug/ Germany:
      E. Fraentzki
      Die Idee der Wissenschaft bei Samuel Hahnemann
      Hans Weitbrecht
      HOMEOPATH / IRELAND

      Comment


      • #4
        I think homeopathy/biochemic effectiveness can only be justified scientifically by maintaining patients response datas & long term patho-physiological changes(by tests) of patient taking these remedies exculusively.
        Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
        Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

        Comment


        • #5
          Science is fraudulent

          The question I ask KV is -"Can you trust science?.


          German Scientist “Faked cancer research”
          German university investigators are on the verge of exposing a "scientific Chernobyl" involving scores of bogus Scientific papers they 'claim were fraudulently published by a cancer research professor who duped the international community for 15 years.
          The case centers on the German professor FriedheIm Herrmann, who until two years ago was a leading cancer research specialist at the universities of Mainz, Freiburg and Ulm ' and the Max Delbruck institute for molecular medicine in Berlin. A special task force at Wurzburg University, which has been examining Dr. Herrmann’s work for 18 months, says it has evidence that the results of at least 80 of his published cancer research tests were faked.
          The extent of the fraud is far greater than we expected” said Roland Houben a taskforce member.” initially we assumed that there were 47 doctored, but now we suspect that at least 80 were faked.'
          The taskforce leader, Professor Ulf Rapp, said, "They developed an aversion to using
          Genuine data."
          Dr Herrmann, who gave up research in 1977 when suspicions were raised and now works as a, general practitioner, has refused to talk to the Wurzburg team was not available for comment yesterday.
          In an interview with the German Magazine Focus earlier this year, he said he was not aware that his published studies had been faked. He blamed the fraud on co-authors and said he should have intervened. It is a drama. My main calling is not research. I was and still am a doctor," he said.
          'The German scientific cases "the Chernobyl of science" Many of the dubious Papers were published in respected U.S. and European journals. Dr; Houben said that although many had been withdrawn, It was impossible to gauge their impact . Faking scientific research is a criminal offence under, German law.

          Guardian 8-11-99

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by passkey
            The question I ask KV is -"Can you trust science?.
            passkey, this is really a good question. I think, science is still very much unclear in itself. If we read Merk's Manuual or other medical information referances, we can find so many concepts & conditions are still unclear, not/can't yet known.....etc. On these unclear concepts & conditions, people probably, may also be geting somewhat unclear treatments. But since, current/modern environment is fancy towards it, we can try explaining something whatever is possible in its language to protect & encourage good systems. Moreover,Since so many money & manpower is invested & being ivested in these modern systems, we can also hope of getting something which is really good. We should not be pre-concieved with the idea that everything can be good or bad in any system but should accept that something can be good in every system which we should try to take & accept that. These are just my views.
            Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
            Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

            Comment


            • #7
              Fw: Can homeopathy withstand scientific testing?

              Forwarded by BRIAN <brc1717@comcast.net>
              ----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
              From: "Gaby Rottler" <rottler@curantur.de>

              Dear all,

              FYI:
              Article about the importance of homeopathy in veterinary practice:

              30 November 2004
              Can homeopathy withstand scientific testing?
              F.J. van Sluijs

              http://www.vetscite.org/

              Best,

              Gaby

              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              Dear Gaby,

              Thanks for passing this link along!
              Here's what I wrote to the editors:

              Dear Sirs:

              Your recent review of the science needs to leave behind the old Avogadro
              Number critique regarding dilution..... it's outdated and inapplicable
              science.

              The following was published in last winter's edition of Simillimum
              (American) and earlier (in part) in Homeopathy Today (British).

              http://www.y2khealthanddetox.com/homeoworks.html

              I am a chemical engineer and had a first publication (on infrared
              analysis) in Zietschrift fur Elektrochemie in 1964. So I guess things
              change more slowly than I expected!

              BTW, I believe Mr. Randi was a promoter and magician at one time?

              Brian R. Connelly, LMHC
              http://www.bestcoaching.org

              Comment


              • #8
                Dear all,

                in the latest issue of 'similia', swiss homeopathic magazine edited by Mohinder Sing Jus, Daniel Hasler, a student of homeopathy wrote about the homeopathic placebo effect. This is a resumee of his article:

                When you say homeopathic remedies don't contain anything, it is correct from the chemical point of view. But homeopathy is not a chemical treatment.

                Nobody has difficulties to admit that we cannot prove chemically the existence of data on a CD. No chemical analysis can show us if the CD contains music or windows. Everybody accepts the fact that the CD is only the carrier of information, like images, texts, music, videos, programs, etc. In order to get the information we need a CD-player or a computer.

                Do we have to say then, that Mozart's music is only placebo, because it cannot be proved chemically to be on the CD?

                Transferring this model to homeopathy we have the globuli being the carrier of the information. Only a living being (instead of the CD-player) can experience the effects of this information.

                I enjoyed this article very much.

                Frauke Girus-Nowoczyn
                Germany

                praxis@ars-homoeopathica.de
                http://www.ars-homoeopathica.de

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by anamchara
                  Dear all,

                  in the latest issue of 'similia', swiss homeopathic magazine edited by Mohinder Sing Jus, Daniel Hasler, a student of homeopathy wrote about the homeopathic placebo effect. This is a resumee of his article:

                  When you say homeopathic remedies don't contain anything, it is correct from the chemical point of view. But homeopathy is not a chemical treatment.

                  Nobody has difficulties to admit that we cannot prove chemically the existence of data on a CD. No chemical analysis can show us if the CD contains music or windows. Everybody accepts the fact that the CD is only the carrier of information, like images, texts, music, videos, programs, etc. In order to get the information we need a CD-player or a computer.

                  Do we have to say then, that Mozart's music is only placebo, because it cannot be proved chemically to be on the CD?

                  Transferring this model to homeopathy we have the globuli being the carrier of the information. Only a living being (instead of the CD-player) can experience the effects of this information.

                  I enjoyed this article very much.

                  Frauke Girus-Nowoczyn
                  Germany

                  praxis@ars-homoeopathica.de
                  http://www.ars-homoeopathica.de
                  The tests mentioned in the article on the OP do not rely on whether a chemical effect or difference can be showed. They rely on whether an actual effect on humans can be shown. This is the crunch: We need not discuss, for now at least, how or why homeopathy works. The core of the matter is that tests consistently fail to show that it works, and your refutations of articles like this ought to center on that.

                  Why is it that neither proving effects nor healing effects can be shown above placebo in a proper experimental setting?

                  As for the content of a CD, it is quite true that a chemical analysis will not show the characteristics of the data content, but a digital analysis will. The analogy used is as irrelevant as saying that you cannot measure the weight of a car with a voltmeter.

                  Hans
                  You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Since informations can be stored & decoded & trasmitted at ultra-molecular, sub-atomic or quantum level, we can't deny these possibilities just by saying, no chemical in atomic & molecular form of active substance is present in homeopathic remedies. One will have to show absense of any quantum particles in remedies based on the limit of E=mc2, to disaprove these remedies. These remedies will be working by some excitations &/or balancing the imbalanced energy levels of molecular structure of differant parts/cells of our body.

                    We should also think & try to understand their working by their effect on acid/base & water (three ayurvedic types) balances in body.
                    Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
                    Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kayveeh
                      Since informations can be stored & decoded & trasmitted at ultra-molecular, sub-atomic or quantum level, we can't deny these possibilities just by saying, no chemical in atomic & molecular form of active substance is present in homeopathic remedies.
                      Kayveeh, you have been trying for over a year to dig up some mechanism that just might act as a storage medium. All were thoroughly refuted. To now say that such a mechanism exists is plain intellectual dishonesty. All you can say is that you hope and believe such a mechanicl exists.

                      Originally posted by kayveeh
                      One will have to show absense
                      One will have to do nothing of the kind. The onus of proof is on YOU, since you make the claim.
                      Originally posted by kayveeh
                      of any quantum particles in remedies based on the limit of E=mc2, to disaprove these remedies. These remedies will be working by some excitations &/or balancing the imbalanced energy levels of molecular structure of differant parts/cells of our body.
                      Technobabble. And you know it.
                      Originally posted by kayveeh
                      We should also think & try to understand their working by their effect on acid/base & water (three ayurvedic types) balances in body.
                      Or, we might simply try to show that they work at all.

                      Hans
                      You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Mr.Hans,

                        One can't say anything untill studies are complete & absolute. As someone has pointed out in Hair transmission topic, 'Quantum entanglement' & 'Quantum information systems' are being under study;
                        Quantum entanglement is a quantum mechanical phenomenon in which the quantum states of two or more objects have to be described with reference to each other, even though the individual objects may be spatially separated. This leads to correlations between observable physical properties of the systems. For example, it is possible to prepare two particles in a single quantum state such that when one is observed to be spin-up, the other one will always be observed to be spin-down and vice versa, this despite the fact that it is impossible to predict, using quantum mechanics, which set of measurements will be observed. As a result, measurements performed on one system seem to be instantaneously influencing other systems entangled with it. However, information cannot be transmitted through entanglement faster than the speed of light.
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement
                        Something & so much is there beyond the current knowledges which are still pending (alike 'not/can't yet be known/found mentionings in modern information referances) to be known, as mass & well distributed observations, experiances acceptance, approvals & existances are still persisting since long.

                        Let us see when science can do/know it.
                        Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
                        Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sorry, Kayveeh, but just because we don't know everything, it does not follow that all things are possible. In that respect science does recognize absolutes.

                          Your "mass & well ...... since long" mantra is, quite frankly, nonsense. Plenty of mass beliefs have been shown to be faulty, and you know it. Somebody at JREF made a long nice (well perhaps not that nice ) list of things you would HAVE to believe in if you really belived in that doctrine. However, since you don't believe in most of those things, you are using it selectively, which is dishonest.

                          Hans
                          You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Mr.Hans,

                            I just know ; mass & well distributed observations, experiances, acceptance, approvals & existances are still persisting since long among well educated & 'made skeptic' type modern peoples. Effects are well noted & exprianced by millions. Several countries accepted homeopathy as effective, so incorpotrated in their regular medical studies, hospitals etc.

                            Rest calculations if desired by science has to do by them for their satisfaction as they did in finding 'earth's shape & several other concepts. I just tried my level best for this purpose or just for curicity but could just conclude that something is there beyond your or science current knowledge which is still peding to know'. Anyway, If you still see any other possibility under 'current status of knowledge', you may discuss here or there, and if not, we may wait till new effective research comes out with some calculation/solution. Since nothing other than this can be possible, we can discuss accordingly.
                            Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
                            Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Validity

                              Instead of asking for proof of the workings of homeopathy , perhaps we should point out the failings of scientific allopathy . In other words take up the role of Randi -in-reverse. I offer the following .
                              Prof. Stuart Sutherland says that in "surveys in Britain and America show that only about 25% of scientists are prepared to provide their original data when requested. Unless there is something to hide there is no reason for such refusal. One can only conclude that scientific fraud is extremely widespread."

                              German Scientist “Faked cancer research”
                              German university investigators are on the verge of exposing a "scientific Chernobyl" involving scores of bogus Scientific papers they 'claim were fraudulently published by a cancer research professor who duped the international community for 15 years.
                              The case centers on the German professor FriedheIm Herrmann, who until two years ago was a leading cancer research specialist at the universities of Mainz, Freiburg and Ulm ' and the Max Delbruck institute for molecular medicine in Berlin. A special task force at Wurzburg University, which has been examining Dr. Herrmann’s work for 18 months, says it has evidence that the results of at least 80 of his published cancer research tests were faked.
                              The extent of the fraud is far greater than we expected” said Roland Houben a taskforce member.” initially we assumed that there were 47 doctored, but now we suspect that at least 80 were faked.'
                              The taskforce leader, Professor Ulf Rapp, said, "They developed an aversion to using
                              Genuine data."
                              Dr Herrmann, who gave up research in 1977 when suspicions were raised and now works as a, general practitioner, has refused to talk to the Wurzburg team was not available for comment yesterday.
                              In an interview with the German Magazine Focus earlier this year, he said he was not aware that his published studies had been faked. He blamed the fraud on co-authors and said he should have intervened. It is a drama. My main calling is not research. I was and still am a doctor," he said.
                              'The German scientific cases "the Chernobyl of science" Many of the dubious Papers were published in respected U.S. and European journals. Dr; Houben said that although many had been withdrawn, It was impossible to gauge their impact . Faking scientific research is a criminal offence under, German law.

                              Guardian 8-11-99

                              Mycoplasma Pneumoniae is neither virus nor bacteria !!! surprise , surprise . Scientists have already pointed out that these organisms are madly swapping bits of genetic material in order to survive , under the pressure of indiscriminate drug therapy. Mutation is the order of the day and it is high time that new drugs had to prove not only that they don't harm individual humans But also that they do not exert evolutionary pressure on organisms to mutate and thus damage both the race of humanity and its environment, * Glaxo have this new wonder drug -- zanamavir -- which is part of a new generation of anti influenza "neuraminidase inhibitors , which interfere with the life cycle of the virus --" . What mutational pressure will this apply to a fairly simple virus and , perhaps , turn it into a pandemic killer ?. Glaxo expect to make millions -- possibly billions from this product and one can see that their shareholders need it -- but do we as a race need it?? .

                              How do you rate the I.Q. of a person who doesn't know the difference between HRT [ hormone replacement therapy] Pills and birth control pills. Pretty untechnical you might feel. But Doctor Stephen Bourne prescribed HRT to a young woman who asked for the Birth Pill. She became pregnant , had an abortion and still no one realised what the problem was until a year after she refused a second abortion . Dr Bourne admitted " I acted very foolishly. I thought they are bound to put two & two together. I deluded myself very foolishly that by Tippexing out I could pretend I hadn't done it " In what kind of ' Alice in wonderland/virtual reality ' do these people live. Is this where spin doctors have brought us ? . Another 'unreality ' /'it never really happened ' story goes back to 1979. when the U.S Air Force medical records were falsified . The cancer inducing and genetic defect creation leading to birth defects of Agent Orange as it affected 1,000 military personnel , were down played and thousands of Vietnam Vets " have not been compensated because of the slanted conclusions " said R Albanese one of the scientists who designed the study. His conscience made him give up the facts [ about 20 years too late ] .

                              Feelings DO affect health. Scientists measured the effects of pleasant and unpleasant experience on antibody immunoglobins [sIAgA] Prof. Warburton of Reading University measured levels after pleasant experience and found that in all cases increases occurred. Some as high as 60% after 3 hours . The body is NOT just a fleshly mechanism. Also if you are unhappy , or have been given immunosuppressants - vaccines or antibiotics [ which may suppress symptoms - but not cure] then the very water you drink may undermine your health. Most unboiled tap water contains cryptosporidium which may give rise to gastro enteritis or symptoms like irritable bowel syndrome. So in theory you could get a flu jab to protect you and because it lowers your immune system - end up with irritable bowel syndrome, I think I'd take my chance with flu !.

                              Vaccination causes illness !! At the moment only accepted in dogs !! A survey of 4,000 dogs being given annual vaccines found higher than normal levels of allergic reactions , epilepsy , brain damage and distemper. Of the dogs in the survey over 66% became ill within 3 months of injection. Might this not also apply to children. But will anyone do a survey ?, I doubt it.

                              ADR [ adverse drug reaction ] , new research indicates that up to 20,000 deaths per year may be due to adverse drug reaction and 5% of all hospital admissions are due to ADR. How much money would the NHS save if it did not give drugs to people and kill them , also how much would be saved in hospital treatment of those who survive. In the USA - ADR is the fourth leading cause of death -- after heart disease , cancer and stroke.

                              Bryan Atkinson redecorated his house to ensure his wife's comfort , then arranged his own funeral . He was at the end of 22 treatments for terminal cancer - a tumor the "size of an orange " . He was then told that he did not have cancer , but an inflamed bowel. Somewhat miffed he now intends to sue . The lesson from this is that if you've had cancer [ or anything else ] diagnosed - don't give up hope !!!.

                              Comment

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