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  • Forget Avogadro's Number

    There are a lot of discussions about the scientific proof of Homeopathy and in particular about the remedies that are highly diluted and therefore there cannot be any substance left. The laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, called Avogadro's number (6.0 x 10E23), corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024)

    However there is no point to argue along these lines; and one will not be able to proof homeopathy with the scientific knowledge we have today. Homeopathy remedies works on the basic of information. Despite the fact that information is so essential to the functioning of any organism, and that people have put a lot of effort into the development of 'Information Science', 'Information Systems', 'Information Management', 'Information Theory', and the like, it may surprise to know that there is no commonly agreed definition. Moreover there is no physical model that explains the “matter of information” and many people do not know that we do not know what information is.

    To illustrate how information has an impact on the mental, emotional and physical state of the body imagine that you see your child run over by a car. This will certainly create a shock state of your body and you might even collapse, a very strong physical impact. In this dramatic example there is NO exchange of material, not single atom is transferred but only information. This particular information has a very strong signature and different people have different sensitivity to this particular signature of information. Clearly all people will get a shock but the parents of that child are the most sensitive to that particular signature of information.

    Along these lines it is the same with homeopathy remedies that also have different information signatures and different people have different sensitive to these signatures. Somehow the process of producing these remedies extracts the information of the substance and stores it in the remedies.

    Therefore if you want to proof how diluted remedies works define a clear model that explain what information is, its properties and how it can be transformed and stored; and at the same time get the Nobel Price.

  • #2
    Not sure I want the NOBEL Price

    But avogrados number is a simple physical fact . It assures people that there can be no arsenic , botulism , or radiation in a remedy . Sod all to do with proving anything.

    Comment


    • #3
      There is always some controversy about this, but in my experience, most homeopaths acknowledge that there are no molecules (from the mother tincture) in high potency remedies. The position is mostly that there is some kind of information or energy imprint on the carrier. Unfortunately, this is of little help, from a scientific POV, because there is no known storage mechanism that could hold such complex information. The fact that different carriers are used (water, alcohol, lactose) makes it even more difficult to explain how complex information could be stored.

      Hans
      You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is my point. We cannot explain how remedies works with the scientific knowledge we have today, just forget it !!!. This helps us further if we accept this FACT. This is not new just imagine that for 100 years ago there were no scientific explanation why the sun was shining !!!!!! it was just there shining day after day, why ??. It is the same with information it is just there we all know it is there but what is it?????

        Hans just stay to the facts and not your opinion

        Comment


        • #5
          reply to MOSE

          Dear MOSE
          thanks for that reply,so verry well put!
          This is why i dont bother going into these posts regards,proof of homeopathics or the science behind homeopathics........science has not reached to the point of explaining homeopathy,Homeopathy is energy,chi,prana,vital force and that is a subject of zero value to a 'scientist'.
          It's a greater probabillity to discuss this with eaze with a Shaman verses a scientist.
          Gina TYler

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mose
            This is my point. We cannot explain how remedies works with the scientific knowledge we have today, just forget it !!!. This helps us further if we accept this FACT. This is not new just imagine that for 100 years ago there were no scientific explanation why the sun was shining !!!!!! it was just there shining day after day, why ??. It is the same with information it is just there we all know it is there but what is it?????

            Hans just stay to the facts and not your opinion
            At the very least it should be possible to show that remedies actually has the claimed effect. After all, they are not given away for free. People are paying for it you know.

            The problem is that in your own OPINION, remedies work but the facts, as gathered from properly conducted clinical trials, show that they does not have the claimed effect.

            Your example with the sun is quite irrelevant. Show that remedies work (that the sun shines), after that we can figure out how it works.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mose
              This is my point. We cannot explain how remedies works with the scientific knowledge we have today, just forget it !!!. This helps us further if we accept this FACT. This is not new just imagine that for 100 years ago there were no scientific explanation why the sun was shining !!!!!! it was just there shining day after day, why ??. It is the same with information it is just there we all know it is there but what is it?????

              Hans just stay to the facts and not your opinion
              Funny:

              You start by confirming my statement that there is no scientific explanation.

              Then you state your opinion that homeopathy works anyway.

              Then you tell ME to stick to facts and refrain from stating MY opinion.

              What is wrong with that picture?

              Hans
              You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mose
                To illustrate how information has an impact on the mental, emotional and physical state of the body imagine that you see your child run over by a car. This will certainly create a shock state of your body and you might even collapse, a very strong physical impact. In this dramatic example there is NO exchange of material, not single atom is transferred but only information. This particular information has a very strong signature and different people have different sensitivity to this particular signature of information. Clearly all people will get a shock but the parents of that child are the most sensitive to that particular signature of information.
                And you're saying that you have no idea about how the information is transfered to your brain and how it combines with previous knowledge to produce a physiological effect? Just because you don't know doesn't mean that it is not known.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ok Jocce then please explain with the scientific knowledge we have today this process. What is transferred, how is it transferred, how is it received and how is the reaction generated.

                  The reason for this post is that many people claims that remedies does not work because there are no substance in them and this is correct there is no substance from a material point of view. From your reply you also seems to indicate that there needs not to be any exchange of substance to generate a reaction.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In your example the information consist of photons hitting your retina in a specific pattern. What exacly is the information consisting of in homeopathic remedies?

                    The interesting thing with homeopaths is that they, to use your example, look at the car accident and see a happy child continue to play.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The reservation skeptics have against homeopathic remedies is not just that there is no substance in them. There is no information in them. Within the knowledge of present science, there is NO way any complex information can be stored in water, and certainly not be transferred to lactose pills, not to mention transferred between lactose pills by simply being in the same bottle.

                      And, the fact is that in spite of the fortune and fame such a feat would bring, no homeopath has yet dared to even claim to be able to distinguish a hight potency remedy from blank medium. Remember the discussion here some months ago about whether airport security X-rays harmed remedies? There was a long discussion pro et con, and it ended largely inconclusive. Why didn't somebody just take a remedy on a flight and test it afterwards? Because you can't. Not even a homeopath can show that a remedy has some information stored in it.

                      Hans
                      You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, science couldn't yet trace the information imprint in remedies of raw remedy substances. There can be some possibilities of " specific structural changes" in carriers- water, alcohol or lactose influenced by raw remedy substances & potentization process--inter or intramolecular. Some people have tried it & noted some positive results;
                        http://www.mercola.com/2003/jun/28/homeopathy.htm

                        ECH has furthur endorssed it.

                        You know that a photo can be differentiated by changes in its colour/shape arrangements/strucuture/pattern, still keeping same composition of different colours & materials.

                        Since homeopathic non-placebo type effects are practically well observed & experianced by its community & mass pubblic, which remained persistant & repeated even in same patients since last appx 200 years, real remedies effects can't be denied just on the weaknesses or misses of science to measure it.
                        Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
                        Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No Kumar!
                          There is NO evidence that suggests that homeopathic remedies work as advertized.

                          It is really strange to me. There has been a number of studies performed that suggests that remedies might work but they have all had their share of very precise critisism. Sometimes they are not properly blinded, other times the statistical analysis is shown to be faulty, etc.

                          Now, if this was me doing these studies I would say "darn, I'll learn from this and redo my study without these errors". But that is never done. The only thing that happens is that people get real upset with anyone pointing out these flaws.

                          What's so scary with doing a proper clinical study that homeopaths time after time fail to do it? Why should only conventional medicines have to prove their effect before being released and not homeopathic remedies? Why the very special, and lax, treatment?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kayveeh
                            Yes, science couldn't yet trace the information imprint in remedies of raw remedy substances. There can be some possibilities of " specific structural changes" in carriers- water, alcohol or lactose influenced by raw remedy substances & potentization process--inter or intramolecular. Some people have tried it & noted some positive results;
                            http://www.mercola.com/2003/jun/28/homeopathy.htm

                            You did not get my point: Scinece cannot trace it, but neither can homeopaths. All your "structural changes" etc. is pure speculation. Since we cannot observe any structures of any complecity in fluids, speculations about specific structure changes are totally idle, IMHO.

                            The studies you refer to are full of flaws, this is even admited by prominent supporters of homeopathy.


                            ECH has furthur endorssed it.

                            You know that a photo can be differentiated by changes in its colour/shape arrangements/strucuture/pattern, still keeping same composition of different colours & materials.

                            And how is this relevant? We know which molecular structures are responsible for this in photos. No structures even remotely like those exist in homeopahtic carriers of any kind.

                            Since homeopathic non-placebo type effects are practically well observed & experianced by its community & mass pubblic, which remained persistant & repeated even in same patients since last appx 200 years, real remedies effects can't be denied just on the weaknesses or misses of science to measure it.

                            Not only is this nonsense. It is even factually wrong. There are no repeatable effects recorded from homeopathy. Otherwise, we would not be discussing this.

                            And we don't deny it based on misses in science. We deny it from lack of documentation. Documentation that could be obtained even without any of the mechanisms being known.
                            --------------------
                            Hans
                            You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mr Hans, Jocce,

                              No one should deny the observations & experiances of millions of people all over the world esp. when most of these are become "modern", sufficiently clever, inteligent & skeptic. They use it & find "specific homeopathic effect" --so accept it persistantly & repeatedly since long. Anyone, you, science fails in measuring it in their style & requirement, persistantly & repeatedly is your or their miss, weakness or ignorance. Just Try try again, you will surely gain. Just become like "A Thiristy Crow" not " A fox" who ignored ny saying "grapes are sour". I think I have already told this here & there many times.

                              Don't say it don't work, but say it works in mass.. practical experiance but we/science couldn't yet know science of its working.
                              Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
                              Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

                              Comment

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