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  • moopet
    replied
    Originally posted by dr manish agarwala
    how much do you think you know about genetics and immunology?

    read works by the giriweb scientists http://www.giriweb.com/, dr prafull vijayakar, george vithoulkas, dr alexandra delenick et al. they ALL say a lot and yet they say that they need to find more, do more research. all the giriweb scientists are not homeopaths, they include MD's, physicists and distinguished people from many disciplines. do you think you are trained or in any way more knowledgeable than everyone else?
    I know a little, sort of the popular-science amount. That's all. But I don't need to know a lot in order to question things in the most basic way, and I am self-educating as I go along

    I've been shown that website before. Please provide me a link to the part which contains these works, because I've clicked all the obvious links and can't find anything?

    Leave a comment:


  • dr manish agarwala
    replied
    ref:effectiveness and proof of homeopathy
    posts by dr pattnaik at http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=6450
    ---------------------------------

    dear dr pattnaik,

    you have gone great work by mentioning the link to http://www.giriweb.com/ and now this wonderful .pdf file link. http://www.euricam.net/images/Scien...ortECHNov04.pdf

    we need to be patient with sceptics like moopet, he represents a large community with a blind-spot for homeopathy. they can go on talking without understanding what they are saying and how they can turn away a suffering patient from homeopathy.

    (moopet and other sceptics posts may be found at:
    http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=6450
    http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=6553
    http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=6082)

    what do these moopets want? that homeopathy works is indisputable. now, if, in the future, a name / a theory is developed for the homeopathic ultra-molecular dilution effects - will that make these moopets happy? if, some future einstein correctly explains the homeopathic ultra-dilute phenomenon (to moopet, james randi, stephen barrett, ben goldacre... and other sceptics satisfaction) and gives it a name - say, "xyz effect" - will that make these moopets happy?

    how can one ignore the clinical results? if there is a clinical effect - that means that the homeo remedy has an effect.

    the research report cited by you (the.pdf link given by you) makes a wonderful comment:“When the observed fact does not correspond to a famous theory, the fact has to be accepted and the theory rejected”; “A theory must be modified to be adapted to nature and not nature to adapt itself to the theory”. Claude Bernard (Introduction à la Médecine Expérimentale)

    the sceptics have zero knowledge of homeo remedy preparation. they don't know that the homeo remedies are NOT merely dilutions but with every stage of dilution there is POTENTIZATION (succusion) as well.

    again, the sceptics are not aware of the clinical results.

    I suggest that the sceptics themselves take doses of ANY high potency remedy and see the effect tehmselves. they are wise enough and will not show any placebo effect! they "know" that the remedy is nothing - just water and alcohol. so, it should not bother them. right? why don't they take a dose themselves and test? let them find out once and for all whether homeopathy works or not.

    let them taking doses of belladonna 200. (I suggest to get the remedy from the helios pharmacy in UK (http://www.helios.co.uk/) let them take one dose every 24 hours. they may stop when they see some effect !

    the pharmacological effect of gross material doses of belladonna and its derivatives are well studied and documented. the sceptics may co-relate their OWN experience with the pharmacological findgings and also check what the homeopathic materia medicas say about belladonna. again, to make things sure, they can send a sample to the lab to test whether the remedy has a even a single molecule of belladonna or not.

    I, hope the moopets et al are reading this and are "wise" enough to take up this challenge.
    recently, the nobel prize was awarded to a scientist who took a broth of helicobacter pylori himself to prove that these organisms cause peptic ulcer. the sceptics may follow the lead of the scientists of the conventional system of medicine and take homeo remedies themselves to prove that they are placebo! they are most welcome.

    the link suggested by you http://www.euricam.net/images/Scien...ortECHNov04.pdf, makes interesting comments about homeopathy:

    1) Experiments are well conducted, in controlled conditions, with a sufficient

    number of plants, animals or cells, and with a fair statistical treatment. The

    facts are indisputable, statistically significant and reproducible, even if they

    cannot be explained using the molecular paradigm.



    2) The use of modern techniques in the hands of specialists is the best way to

    show sceptics that the experimental facts are well grounded and confirmed

    by reproducible experiments. Even in ultra-molecular homeopathic

    dilutions, specific information of the prime dissolved substance still remains

    in the preparation and can be detected experimentally.

    3) “When the observed fact does not correspond to a famous theory, the fact

    has to be accepted and the theory rejected”; “A theory must be modified to

    be adapted to nature and not nature to adapt itself to the theory”. Claude

    Bernard (Introduction à la Médecine Expérimentale).



    4) Veterinary studies minimize placebo effects and confirm the efficacy of

    homeopathic treatments. Experiments in laboratory animals help

    improving research design in homeopathy.



    5) Conclusions: Clear indications exist about clinical effectiveness of

    homeopathy; homeopathy is effective in uncontrolled practice or versus

    comparison groups; enough indications exist that “placebo” is an

    insufficient explanation for the effects of homeopathy. Homeopathy can be

    similar or better in effectiveness than conventional treatment and, where it

    has been studied, it is cheaper in the long run. Many interesting questions

    not even asked should be prioritized, such as the potential of homeopathy to

    avoid invasive procedures in children and, in primary care settings, the

    long-term effect of homeopathy in preventing chronic complications.



    --------

    dr pattnaik, I think you should write to the b.jain journal and attach a copy of this whole report. (you may take permission from the authors). I am posting a copy of this post to the homeolist as well.

    the links suggested by you, will figure in my another post - that I am writing today.

    I suggest few more links for the sceptics:

    http://www.homeotherapeutics.gr/

    http://www.predictivehomeopathy.com/home/main.htm
    (this is the weblink to dr prafull vijayakar. one may read this website and if possible, attend his seminars. he offers clear videotaped clinical evidence that homeopathy works at the genetic level. he may be contacted to get proof.
    he has cured many cases that are said to be congenital malformations.
    I read in a journal that he has also cured a down's syndrome case. I have myself seen the videos of a case of sturge weber syndrome, that he cured). he or his associates may be contacted for more details. details are also available at http://www.homeocases.org/home/index.asp



    I am myself a witness to the homeopathic cure of several confirmed cases of thromboangiitis obliterans (Buerger's Disease). this disease is said to be of genetic origin and has NO cure in conventional medicine. I have seen the patient in person as well as the hospital records (that mentions the diagnosis), the colour doppler study reports (that confirms the diagnosis). finally we can produce the cured patients and also provide photographs, as evidence. those who would like to get the details - may contact: dr dhananjay ray, a veteran homeopath of over 70 years, residing at 5/D rakhal ghose lane, calcutta - 700085, India (phone: + 91- 33 - 2350-1145). his son is writing a book or thesis on buerger's disease and its cure by homeopathy.
    if homeopathy can heal the gangrene (due to "incurable" buerger's disease) WITHOUT any need for amputation - without loss of limb - how can it be a placebo? how can it be quackery? these cures were by common homeopathic polycrest remedies like lycopodium, lachesis etc.

    the immunological benefits of homeo remedies has been documented durings epidemics. one may search the H7 version of EH of radar software to view the hsitorical documents. again, research reports are at:
    http://homeopathic.com/articles/research/index.php
    http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/

    thank you dr pattnaik for writing to us. we homeopaths need to work real hard and practice good homeopathy to ensure that this wonderful science and its benefits reach the masses.

    regards,

    dr manish agarwala
    -----------------



    a letter to mr moopet and other sceptics:

    mr moopet - you are neither a homeopath nor a physician of conventional medicine and do not have any idea about the homeopathic facts or about clinical medicine of any system. again, if homeopathy works in india -it works in USA and UK as well. read my posts and check the links for USA and UK. I hope you will stop misleading others who come to these forums (or find these posts through google).

    brother moopet, I have been told that there are 3 categories of people.
    1) one who knows not and knows not that he knows not - he is a fool. shun him.
    2) one who knows not and knows that he knows not - is simple. teach him.
    3) one who knows and knows he knows - is great. follow him.

    I provide links to people and their works, whom I consider to be in category 3. I respect the scientists, learned physicians and other wise people and look forward to learn from them.

    I have my love for people in the category 2 and try to help them as much as I can. I consider myself to be in category 2.

    I hope you are not in the category 1 and I or others will not need to shun / ignore you (and others of your kind) - just as tanya (tanstar) commented in a post.
    tanstar wrote: "You know, when you see posters like this, just ignore them. These ignorant people enjoy nothing more than aggravating good people like you. Don't give them that benefit. Just ignore them. They'll see that they're not getting any attention, and will go elsewhere to spread their negative energy and superiority complex. Just let them be. It is absolutely pointless to engage in any type of conversation with them. Just ignore them and soon they will be on their way. P.S. Maybe one day, these sceptics will fall very ill (god forbid) and their trusted doctors won’t be able to help them. And as their final resort, they’ll go to a homeopath. Then they will turn into believers. But right now, it is pointless to try to change their minds. Keep in mind, that in the end truth will always prevail!"

    there are many people who come to these forums and/or google to see whether their "incurable" illness can be helped by homeopathy or not. NO science (whether homeopathy or allopathy etc) is complete in itself. each has its own limitations - each branch is evolving and changing with time as well. the conventional medicine (allopathy) has its own uses and benefits - no doubt about that. homeopathy also has its limitations. again, there is bogus homeopathy (like polypharmacy, pseudo-homeopathic OTC combinations, ointments etc.) and bogus homeopaths who prescribe and sell those. we need to guide these suffering people to genuine experienced homeopaths. we need to offer good advice.
    we need to offer correct information and guidance. no false hope - not saying that homeopathy is panacea - but, just sharing correct information -just, guiding to the coorect person. I do not mean to say that you or the whole world should believe in homeopathy and/or only take homeo remedies etc. but, I do feel (and I hope you will agree) - everyone (whether medically trained or not, whether homeopath or not, whether physician or patient) has a right to make an informed decision - has a right to get well - atleast, hope to get well.

    I hope you will join me and other homeopaths in the category 2 and will not need to be shunned and ignored like people in category 1 - just as tanya pointed out.

    with love, respect and compassion - I, on behalf of all homeopaths, sincerely welcome you and all sceptics to the correct information about homeopathy. after all, we are all willing to learn. there is no harm in being a sceptic - you learn by questioning. but, I, hope, it will not be "doubting thomas" situation with a blind-spot for truth. hope it will not be category 1.

    you may also do the belladonna 200 test mentioned above to find out things on your own.

    finally, truth and truth alone is victorious. not what I or you believe. this applies to everything. I myself deeply doubted homeopathy many years ago - but, I worked to find out the truth. I have seen it working for me and my family members and saving the life of my grandfather and so have many MD's who have converted to homeopathy, in the past and also in the present times.

    take care and be happy.

    dr manish agarwala

    Leave a comment:


  • dr manish agarwala
    replied
    Originally posted by moopet
    Mentioning gene mapping should be avoided. You're implying that homeopathic solutions affect genes. That would not make much sense. This looks like picking a new-sounding technology and claiming some connection. Same with later suggesting we might be on the "threshold of a scientific revolution". Comparisons with vaccines are always going to be trouble, since they work in a different way, they're going to look like sleight-of-hand.

    [/size][/font]
    how much do you think you know about genetics and immunology?

    read works by the giriweb scientists http://www.giriweb.com/, dr prafull vijayakar, george vithoulkas, dr alexandra delenick et al. they ALL say a lot and yet they say that they need to find more, do more research. all the giriweb scientists are not homeopaths, they include MD's, physicists and distinguished people from many disciplines. do you think you are trained or in any way more knowledgeable than everyone else?

    Leave a comment:


  • moopet
    replied
    Constructive criticism from a sceptic

    Straight off, I'm not paid (an neither is anyone else I've ever heard of) to say I believe or don't believe in anything. That's barmy.

    I can envision a few responses to that letter, without even looking into who the people referenced actually are:

    1) "They laughed at me in Vienna" is absolutely irrelevant to anything. I could say Greta Garbo was wrong when she sat her high-school exams in question 8 of the mathematics paper. Doesn't mean cars don't work or meteorites are made of cheese. That's how people will see this argument, and that's how people always have.


    2) Most of the people mentioned are from India. Not knocking India, but the general health level over there isn't seen as anything much by, say, American standards.

    Mentioning gene mapping should be avoided. You're implying that homeopathic solutions affect genes. That would not make much sense. This looks like picking a new-sounding technology and claiming some connection. Same with later suggesting we might be on the "threshold of a scientific revolution". Comparisons with vaccines are always going to be trouble, since they work in a different way, they're going to look like sleight-of-hand.


    and yes ! the term "allopathy" came into being after "homeopathy" was discovered! in the 1800's allopathy was called "old school of medicine" and homeopathy - "the new school"!

    This doesn't help your case and is irrelevant. Homeopathy is by some now called "the new school of quackery". What some people called some thing some time ago is meaningless. Especially when the term "allopathy" is only used by non-homeopaths for simplicity when talking to homeopaths.

    Other than that, looks like a good list of links and points

    Leave a comment:


  • sajjadakram635
    replied
    For last many years peoples are constantly objecting the efficiency of the homeopathic medicines.I think they are paid people.We should avoid paying any attention to them.They will never accept homeopathy as a effective system of medicine.It is just a waste of time.

    sajjad.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dillweed
    replied
    Originally posted by dr manish agarwala
    ...doses may also be given to animals and put in potted plants...
    What would you expect to be the result of dosing a plant?

    Leave a comment:


  • dr manish agarwala
    replied
    is homeopathy quackery?

    I have sent the following email to dr stephen barrett,M.D., who runs http://www.homeowatch.org/
    dr barrett believes that homeopathy, homeo remedies and homeopaths are all fake, quackery, delusion, meaningless, senseless, effect-less etc.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    dear dr stephen barrett,M.D.,

    I read with interest, parts of your website on homeopathy, where you present homeopathy as a quackery. http://www.homeowatch.org/

    you are highly qualified and an intelligent person - no doubt about that.

    may I request you, as a scientific minded person to do a test?

    take a sealed vial of arsenicum album (ars. alb., in short) from any renowned homeopathic pharmacy. you may get liquid or in globules. I would suggest to get the remedy from hahnemann labs in USA
    http://www.hahnemannlabs.com/

    get the highest available potency of ars. alb. and if possible the CM potency (i.e. 1,00,000 potency). now, you believe that homeopathy is fake, quackery and that infinitesimal dilutions (with not even a single molecule of the drug) have NO effect. right? OK. you see, the avogadro's number is already crossed before the 12th centesimal potency and this is 1,00,000 potency. so it cannot have even a molecule of the original substance (which is oxide of arsenic). right?
    so, as per your views, this remedy has ZERO effect. right?

    good! as you are an intelligent scientist - I request you to do a test. take ars. alb in 1,00,000 potency and give it to any human being (and if possible several or many people). how about mixing it in water and giving it to a room full of people like you who believe that homeopathy is a quackery and is fake?
    one drop per person (or even less), to be kept in mouth for 3 minutes and swallowed. doses may also be given to animals and put in potted plants.

    send samples of the remedy to testing laboratories. they will report back that the vial contains ONLY water and alcohol and not even a molecule of arsenic is there.

    now, you wait and see the results. wait for a maximum of 7 days (minimum: within few minutes)

    if you are a scientist and if you see ANY result (that surprsingly looks like arsenic poisoning. eg. burning sensation, restlessness, rice water stools, restlessness, rashes etc.) admit that you were WRONG all these years and accept defeat. it is good to be humble, dr barrett. scientific people like you, should be encouraging scientific research into homeopathy to understand homeopathic phenomenon.

    and yes, if you conduct the above test, in the presence of neutral witnesses (who certify the genuineness and perfection of the remedy and/or test procedure) and find that the remedy has ZERO effect = do tell the whole world that homeopathy is fake. go to the government and ask them to ban the homeo remedies. do whatever you want. but test first. first test and then talk.

    LEGAL DISCLAIMER: the above test is very dangerous and may have serious consequences. proceed at your own risk. I am not to be held accountable for the effects or consequences. a CM potency of ars. alb is very powerful and has strong effects. I am not suggesting / advising anyone to test it this way on human beings, pets or even plants. the above was written to convince a sceptic that infinitesimal dilutions have infinitely more power !

    if you would like to do a in-vitro test on the effect of homeopathy, check this link: http://www.gcchr.com/experimental_rese.htm
    here you will see details of the work done by dr girish gupta of india, where he has shown the effect of homeo remedies against fungi and micro-organisms in laboratory dishes. you may get in touch with dr gupta and repeat these tests in USA.

    if you would like to know about the clinical effect of homeopathy, you may get in touch with dr bill gray M.D., dr roger morrison,M.D., dr luc de schepper, M.D.,in USA and/or prof. george vithoulkas (greece), dr prafull vijayakar (India). let me know if you need their contact addresses. these great homeopaths will be able to show many cured cases, with proper records to substantiate that homeopathy works. again, why not refer a dozen or so cases (that are said to be "incurable" by allopaths) to these homeopaths and see whether they can do something or not? you may become a witness as well.
    --------------

    a discussion is going on in this web forum on the topic "is homeopathy mere placebo?" I had posted the first post, in response to the recent lancet report.
    if you would like to know the truth about homeopathy, you may check these 2 links and read my posts there. there are a lot of links there in. if you are seriously interested in un-covering the truth about homeopathy, my posts (and the links there) should help you.
    http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=6082
    http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=6553

    I will be posting this email to you, on these forums as well.

    I hope, an intelligent, well educated, scientific minded person will take a rational look at what is truth and what is not. it seems, you have totally ignored the clinical proofs of homeopathic cures. in such a scenario, I had to write about the ars. alb. test.

    "Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the empirical world: all knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." – Albert Einstein

    “Truth is what stands the test of experience.” – Albert Einstein

    I request, challenge and welcome you to truth.

    I respectfully welcome you to discover homeopathy and encourage other doctors and scientists to investigate, research and spread it for the benefit of humanity.

    regards,
    dr manish agarwala
    india

    Leave a comment:


  • dr manish agarwala
    replied
    more discussion on this thread (is homeopathy mere placebo) at:

    http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=6553

    Leave a comment:


  • dr manish agarwala
    replied
    the truth about homeopathy

    dr shahzad,

    you may do a service to homeopathy by sharing the contents of this letter with other people.

    best wishes,
    dr manish agarwala

    Leave a comment:


  • dr manish agarwala
    replied
    no.
    -dr manish

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr. Aamir Shahzad
    replied
    Has the letter been published?

    Leave a comment:


  • dr manish agarwala
    started a topic is homeopathy mere placebo?

    is homeopathy mere placebo?

    Dear homeolist,



    Recently, ‘the telegraph’ newspaper (published from calcutta, india) published articles on the lancet research study, in it’s monday science supplement – ‘knowhow’. Therein homeopathy was portrayed as a “placebo”. This sparked off a debate. The knowhow editors have already published 3 set of letters from the readers – some supporting homeopathy and some opposing homeopathy. “non-sense” / “unscientific” / “placebo” / “pseudo-scientific” are some of the words used for homeopathy. Some readers (including an allopathic doctor) have stated that there is no proof that homeopathy works and that not even a single case can be cured with homeopathy.



    I have tried to write a reply. The following was sent to the newspaper today. I hope they publish it.

    ---------------

    To

    Know HOW

    The Telegraph

    Calcutta



    dear sir,



    I have read with interest, the article on homeopathy, published in knowhow (“effect only in mind”, september 5) and the great debate that followed, in the “third law” column [readers’ letters column].



    I respect knowHOW for the well researched quality of information and as such I pray that the readers be given the real facts (and not personal views). let the knowledgeable reader decide. let science triumph. let truth prevail.



    the following must be noted as far as homeopathy is concerned.



    1) science is not a system of beliefs - it is in fact a rational unbiased enquiry to find the truth. a scientific mind should not "believe" but research / experiement / experience and discover the real truth. was einstein always right? didn't galileo get in trouble for stating that earth revolves around the earth? didn't lord kelvin state that flying machines are not possible? a scientific mind is not static and senile - it is ever prepared to revise / renew our understanding and discover the truth. this applies to homeopathy and homeopathy dilutions as well. why believe? let's leave no stone unturned to find out.



    2) those looking for some hard facts on the scientific studies on homeopathy may check: http://homeopathic.com/articles/research/index.php



    homeopathy is available under NHS in UK and there are homeopathy hospitals in UK. more details at:

    http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/

    http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/case/res_toc.html



    here is an attempt by a homeopath in bombay (dr pravin jain) to create a homeopathically cured cases database. check: http://www.homeocases.org/home/index.asp



    dr prafull vijayakar of bombay has stunned the sceptics by his video recording of cases (said to be "incurable" by allopaths) cured homeopathically. his scientific teachings on the hering's laws of cure have invited worldwide attention. check:

    http://www.predictivehomeopathy.com/home/main.htm



    prof. george vithoulkas of greece can be said to be one person who may be credited for the renaissance of homeopathy. he is the winner of alternative nobel prize. he heads the international academy of classical homoeopathy. more at: http://www.vithoulkas.com/



    closer home dr dhananjay ray, a veteran homeopath of over 70 years, residing at 5/D rakhal ghose lane, calcutta - 700085, India (phone: + 91- 33 - 2350-1145) may be contacted to see several homeopathically cured cases of buerger's disease. there is no known cure of this disease except amputation. if homeopathy is a placebo - how were these people cured without loss of limb? these cases are supported by colour doppler studies and were referred to dr ray from the allopathic medical colleges. he has all papers and proofs with him. he is too old and may die in a few years. the sceptics may talk to him and see the papers to discover homeopathy - the "de medicina futura" (medicine of the future).



    I, personally, am waiting for the human gene mapping project to get completed. when the age of "genetic medicine" will come - homeopathy will prove it's worth. the homeopathic principles of "like cures like" have already been proved to be successful in the use of vaccines - maybe in next 50 years the physics/chemistry of homeopathic dilutions will also be discovered. we maybe on the threshold of a scientific revolution.



    3) the readers of knowHOW may be surprised to know that at the turn of the century there were homeopathic hospitals in the USA, more than 25% of the physicians in USA were homeopaths and the hospital outpatient departments (OPD) were managed by homeopaths. the insurance companies were more eager to sell their policies to people who took homeopathy, as they lived longer. what went wrong ? those who are interested may do google searches on homeopathy (or homoeopathy) history and find out the politics that has blocked the progress of homeopathy for more than 100 years.



    a condensed history of homeopathy may be found at: http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/intro/history.php



    4) due to socio-political reasons the teaching/research in homeopathy did not progress like allopathy. unfortunately, many homeopaths prescribe patent / branded homeopathic mixtures / tonics / combinations / ointments in the name of "modern homeopathy". this does not work and the public is losing confidence in homeopathy. it is nice to know that at least a few sincere homeopaths, the world over, have continued to practice in the correct way and call themselves "classical homeopaths". the knowHOW reader is requested to do a google search on "classical homeopathy" / "classical homoeopathy" to know more.



    5) last but not the least - it is the clinical effect of homeopathy that matters. yes, it is true that the physics/chemistry of homeopathic ultra-molecular dilutions have not be clearly understood, till date, but the clinical results have been verified for more than 150 years. the scientists must research to find out the mystery of the ultra-molecular dilutions. meanwhile, the clinical application of homeopathy should continue.



    some of the best homeopaths, in the last 150 years, converted to homeopathy from allopathy. have we forgotten the great pioneer from bengal dr mahendra lal sircar (1833-1904) ? dr sircar topped the MD examination of calcutta university in 1863 and later converted to homeopathy.



    and yes ! the term "allopathy" came into being after "homeopathy" was discovered! in the 1800's allopathy was called "old school of medicine" and homeopathy - "the new school"!



    the sceptics may conduct unbiased clinical studies by correctly applying homeopathic medicines - and note the results.



    dr samuel hahnemann, the founder of homeopathy said "aude sapere" - dare to be wise. let's dare to wise.



    long live hahnemann. long live homeopathy.



    satyamev jayate (may truth prevail).



    regards,

    dr manish agarwala

    classical homeopath and a lover of truth 'as it is'

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