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is homeopathy mere placebo?

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  • is homeopathy mere placebo?

    Hello Dr Manish,

    I'd like to comment on your letter. By the way are you a medically qualified doctor or some other kind?

    I'll respond using your numbers:

    1. I agree. Science is a rational unbiased enquiry. The enquiries must be conducted under strict observing conditions or they are worthless and must be discarded. It is constantly changing and evolving, building on previous achievements.

    2. I don't doubt that you could show me some people who claim to have cured patients with homeopathic remedies. Problem is that science rejects such evidence because of point 1 - "strict observing conditions". This means that for science to accept your evidence, the cases would had to have been cured within the realms of a properly conducted clinical trial, with all the necessary safeguards put in place (double blind and placebo controlled etc). Were they?

    3. I have no idea if your facts are correct on this point but let's assume they are. It still amounts to hearsay and doesn't support your case.

    4. You say homeopathy was suppressed delibrately by some conspiracy. The alternative explanation is that it was merely replaced by more effective treatments.

    5. I agree. It IS the clinical effect of homeopathy that matters. Doesn't the lancet article report on just that effect? The Lancet study is a summary of 110 other studies into homeopathy. They found no evidence that homeopathy works beyond placebo. How many more demonstrations of 'clinical effect' do you want?

    It's funny how all the incredible claims of homeopaths fade away when the light of real science is shone upon them. The only trials of homeopathy that have ever been successful have been conducted by homeopaths or their supporters. Does anyone find that a bit strange?

  • #2
    reply

    String
    many many many books already written on this subject of homeopathy and science,research and trails
    link;
    www.homeopathic.com www.hpathy.com left handside margin take a look
    go to booklistings on this website. And Dont forget to read the 5 books listed before you asks more ridiculous questions.
    (more on ONLINE RESOURCES go to this website forum dated; 25th april 2005) a post by sreischman with many links/research papers.

    No, there is nothing better than homeopathy for healing/cure
    Many posted cure cases are on line via homeopathic personal websites
    Its so easy to throw your comments out,yet when we post a reply as to where and how you can find the answers ,there is only more conflict and questions,instead of you taking the time to read all the information out there already.
    Are allopathic MD's ever questions as to the effectiveness rate of their meds,how about the adverse effects of allopathics (300,000 per year every year) Yet the average layman still trusts their allopath. Where lays the burden of proof here?
    Such toxic methods of healing yet accepted (media /political manipulations)
    Homeopathy does not have the lobbyist/politicians/media payoffs to boost this form of "CURE".
    Gina Tyler

    Comment


    • #3
      Gina,

      Let's take a hypothetical:
      You are travelling home one night when you crash your car. You are badly injured but concious. How do you proceed?

      Do you phone for an ambulance or a homeopath?

      OK, that's not really fair. I'll give you an easier one.

      You get appendicitis. Of course you don't know it's appendicitis because you haven't been to a doctor. You just know that you're in pain. Who do you phone first, the ambulance or the homeopath? Remember, you've got about 48 hours before your appendix bursts and gives you blood poisoning.

      OK, that's not really fair either - no-one in their right mind would do anything other than get emergency treatment.

      So maybe these evil pill-pushing, conspiratorial, suppressive, uncaring doctors have their uses?

      Begs the question though, just what is homeopathy good for? Warts?

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello,

        ST,

        Suppose we collect all studies, observations and experiances by homeopathic and scientific communty and see the nett result. How should science/people should take it. If someone with preconcieved ideas select few bitter almonds from many almonds--can not mean almond is a bitter nut...so can't be socially acceptable for taste and health. It is common practice of many people with preconcieved ideas and vested interests to show/indicate just the few negative ones by ignoring many positive ones. Let the nature/mass people take its own recource.

        Reg: working science of homeopathic remedies, these works by preserving changed "thermodynamic equilibrium" on potentisation among raw remedy substances, carriers and surrounding forces and so changed carrier's molecules(more active) specific to remedy effects, energetically. So it is the quantity of changed carrier's molecules that effect.

        The process that leads to a thermodynamic equilibrium is called thermalisation. An example of this is a system of interacting particles that is left undisturbed by outside influences. By interacting, they will share energy/momentum among themselves and reach a state where the global statistics are unchanging in time.

        In thermodynamics, the local state of a system at thermodynamic equilibrium is determined by the values of its intensive parameters (examples of intensive parameters include pressure,temperature etc.).
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_equilibrium
        A perfect crystal has "absolute zero" motion/temp./energy i.e. -273 degreeC but if triturated/diluted its molecules will not? Other imperfect crystals/concentrated substances can have some variation on upper temp. but still should be lower to its seprated molecules.

        Molecules in crystals or in some concentrated/raw form can have less "kinetic" but more "potential" energy whereas molecules in its triturated/diluted or seprated form can have more "kinetic" but less "potential energy"...somewhat alike in magnets.
        Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
        Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

        Comment


        • #5
          So homeopathy works by 'thermodynamic equilibrium' ?

          I'll explain this for your benefit, kayveeh.

          Thermodynamics is the study of energy distribution. Energy can take many forms but in this context it refers to heat and entropy. Entropy is a tricky concept to imagine but it really refers to the degree of disorder in a system. We can ignore entropy for the moment and concentrate on heat.

          When you heat something, what you are actually doing is making the molecules move faster. They can move in many different ways but it amounts to the same thing - they move more.

          As kayveeh says, when you add a hot liquid to a cold liquid, say pour boiling water into a container of cold water, the overall liquid rapidly reaches a point of equilibrium or balance. The total liquid is neither hot nor cold but somewhere in between.

          How does this actually happen? Simple - the hot liquid contains molecules that are moving quickly and cold liquid contains molecules that are moving slowly. When the fast molecules meet the slow ones they bounce off each other. The fast one gets slower because of the collision and the slow one gets faster. Very soon all the molecules are moving at roughly the same speed - equilibrium.

          Kayveeh says that homeopathy works by preserving changed "thermodynamic equilibrium" on potentisation among raw remedy substances. It should be fairly easy to spot why this can't happen, given the information above. His explanation is simply a lot of scientific sounding words dropped into a meaningless sentence. Don't worry though, he'll have a dozen new theories by next week.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by String Theory
            So homeopathy works by 'thermodynamic equilibrium' ?

            I'll explain this for your benefit, kayveeh.

            Thermodynamics is the study of energy distribution. Energy can take many forms but in this context it refers to heat and entropy. Entropy is a tricky concept to imagine but it really refers to the degree of disorder in a system. We can ignore entropy for the moment and concentrate on heat.

            When you heat something, what you are actually doing is making the molecules move faster. They can move in many different ways but it amounts to the same thing - they move more.

            As kayveeh says, when you add a hot liquid to a cold liquid, say pour boiling water into a container of cold water, the overall liquid rapidly reaches a point of equilibrium or balance. The total liquid is neither hot nor cold but somewhere in between.

            How does this actually happen? Simple - the hot liquid contains molecules that are moving quickly and cold liquid contains molecules that are moving slowly. When the fast molecules meet the slow ones they bounce off each other. The fast one gets slower because of the collision and the slow one gets faster. Very soon all the molecules are moving at roughly the same speed - equilibrium.

            Kayveeh says that homeopathy works by preserving changed "thermodynamic equilibrium" on potentisation among raw remedy substances. It should be fairly easy to spot why this can't happen, given the information above. His explanation is simply a lot of scientific sounding words dropped into a meaningless sentence. Don't worry though, he'll have a dozen new theories by next week.
            Simply, molecules/particles after potentization will be different in their Thermodynamics and PE properties from those when they were in crystal/concentrated form. They are not at absolute zero after potentization but could be when in perfect crystal. Just study...Thermodynamic Equilibrium, effects/energy shifting to carriers, internal energy, entropy, enthalpy, kinetic/potential energy, motion/rest in inertial and non-inertial frames, absolute zero/temp./motion/energy, changes in internal energy on trituration, dilution, potentization
            Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
            Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

            Comment


            • #7
              reply

              String
              As i thought,your post was only placed on line a few hours after myn,You did nothing with the links i have provided for you. All the research,journals,articles,proof,cases is already out there. All we get is more questions that do not go anywhere.
              Yes i could discuss the patients that have been cured of fatal ailments,but what is the point of my time spent with a sceptic like you..........................That's it.
              Gina Tyler

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by String Theory
                So homeopathy works by 'thermodynamic equilibrium' ?

                I'll explain this for your benefit, kayveeh...

                Kayveeh says that homeopathy works by preserving changed "thermodynamic equilibrium" on potentisation among raw remedy substances. It should be fairly easy to spot why this can't happen, given the information above. His explanation is simply a lot of scientific sounding words dropped into a meaningless sentence. Don't worry though, he'll have a dozen new theories by next week.
                Just tell me, if you change the strucure or form of any substance(say crystal) to molecular and macromolecular level(say it diluted/triturated partilcles) by keeping its chemical compostion as same--will changed form effect differently from its origional structure/form or not?

                ]Binding energy is the energy required to disassemble a whole into separate parts. A bound system has a lower potential energy than its constituent parts; this is what keeps the system together; it corresponds to a positive binding energy.
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_energy
                Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
                Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

                Comment


                • #9
                  hi strung,

                  boy, u r really smart. seriously. i don't question it at all. but, useful intelligence? apparently not.

                  tell me this: is it possible for the transactional process in a randomized double blind placebo controlled trial of homeopathy - as between the model, the experimental design (protocol), and the characteristics of therapeutic dynamics in the real world - to produce a statistical effect that favors placebo? and, assuming that the answer to this question is "yes," is it possible to produce the same paradoxical outcome in a trial of conventional medicine?

                  thanx for your thawtful replie.

                  btw, gina, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to "...discuss [with hi strung] the [homeopathic] patients that have been cured of fatal ailments..."! i'm afraid even a **** like him would win that one.

                  bach
                  "The need to perform adjustments for covariates...weakens the findings." BMJ Clinical Evidence: Mental Health, (No. 11), p. 95.... It's that simple, guys: bad numbers make bad science.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ooops, hi again, g string -

                    i really should clarify that i mean "thawtful" and not the typical skeptical "yes/no" response. i mean, explane yurselph, and yur thawt prosecz.
                    "The need to perform adjustments for covariates...weakens the findings." BMJ Clinical Evidence: Mental Health, (No. 11), p. 95.... It's that simple, guys: bad numbers make bad science.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      homeopathy, the perfect science of healing

                      dear "string theory",

                      you may be surprised to know that there are a large number of doctors (both in the past and also at present) who hold dual qualifications in allopathy as well as homeopathy.

                      they know what to do in an emergency and whether homeopathy works in an emergency or not.

                      again, many of these doubly qualified homeopaths have very valid reasons why they became homeopaths (and many practice ONLY homeopathy). if you really found out, you may come to know that these learned doctors switched to homeopathy after the allopathic medicine had no answer to their own personal sufferings.

                      you may check the links of the royal london homeopathic hospital to know more. they offer their homeo degree only to medically (allopathic) qualified.

                      of course, I do not mean to say that those who hold only homeopathic qualification, are in any way less knowledgeable than those who have double qualifications - but, for a sceptic like you, I had to write the above.

                      again, I do not mean to say that modern allopathic medicine has no role to play. it has its own place and own use.

                      I could have written about me, my education, my life, my family history and a lot else... and that may have been an eye opener... however, I leave that...
                      once upon a time - I was also like you! how, I discovered homeopathy is a long story. if, I and/or my parents/grand parents had got correct homeo treatment 50 years ago - our lives would have been different.

                      I myself never knew that I would ever believe in homeopathy or go to the extent of becoming a homeopath.

                      with best wishes and compassion for you, all I can say is do visit a good classical homeopath - if you or your near/dear one ever has a problem (god forbid) for which allopathy has no answer. you may deny/ridicule this idea now. just keep in mind.

                      even in the field of homeopathy - there are many ways to practice, many theories and practitioners with different approaches / levels of experience / homeopaths with their own conditionings and beliefs. don't be confused or misled or be deluded, if you think you have a better arguement when you discuss this issue with one/few homeopaths. take it from me that there is a deep truth and validity in here.

                      I have no time for any debate and have no intention to convince you. you may read the links in my original post to know more.

                      ... and who knows where will you be many years from now? you may also benefit from correct homeopathy one day and may be, also discover some other still subtler truths....
                      your understanding of string theorIES and all other theorIES may fall in place!

                      I would like to end by 2 quotes from albert einstein.

                      “The skeptic will say: “It may well be true that this system of equations is reasonable from a logical standpoint. But this does not prove that it corresponds to nature.” You are right, dear skeptic. Experience alone can decide on truth. ... Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the empirical world: all knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it.” – Albert Einstein

                      “Truth is what stands the test of experience.” – Albert Einstein

                      dr manish agarwala

                      by the way -
                      my new homeopathic clinic will be named "de medicina futura" - medicine of the future!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        my original post (to which 'string theory' responded, but did not quote or mention the source) may be found at:

                        http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=6082

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by g.tyler
                          Are allopathic MD's ever questions as to the effectiveness rate of their meds,how about the adverse effects of allopathics (300,000 per year every year) Yet the average layman still trusts their allopath. Where lays the burden of proof here?
                          The burden of proof? All legitimate conventional medicines have been shown to work or are under trial to show they work. That's what happens. All homeopathic medicines... haven't.

                          I came to this forum to see if I could hear both sides of the story, keeping as open a mind as possible but the attitudes expressed and complete lack of understanding of even high-school science displayed have pretty much closed it.

                          The best homeopaths have to offer on the basis of this (and one or two other) fora is anecdotes and pseudoscience. A lot of "read the evidence before you criticise us" comments when you are clearly incapable of understanding what evidence actually is.

                          Science isn't a dirty word. But I can think of a five-syllable one that is.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by moopet
                            The burden of proof? All legitimate conventional medicines have been shown to work or are under trial to show they work. That's what happens. All homeopathic medicines... haven't.

                            I came to this forum to see if I could hear both sides of the story, keeping as open a mind as possible but the attitudes expressed and complete lack of understanding of even high-school science displayed have pretty much closed it.

                            The best homeopaths have to offer on the basis of this (and one or two other) fora is anecdotes and pseudoscience. A lot of "read the evidence before you criticise us" comments when you are clearly incapable of understanding what evidence actually is.

                            Science isn't a dirty word. But I can think of a five-syllable one that is.

                            what a sterling example of skeptical "science," proclaiming her openmindedness, then blaming adherents of an opposing pov for closing her mind. instead of, for example, learning something about the subject under review by actually reading the professional literature in some detail. but, rather surf the net for a miscellani of opinions in an unstructure dialogue, so that she can toss in a variety of confounders and misunderstandings of her own, blaming, as i say, others for her own lack of wit.
                            "The need to perform adjustments for covariates...weakens the findings." BMJ Clinical Evidence: Mental Health, (No. 11), p. 95.... It's that simple, guys: bad numbers make bad science.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              reply

                              moopet
                              "all legit conv. meds have been shown to work"...............
                              Who are you kidding?
                              The increase in autism,ADD/ADHD from vaccines are a perfect example of just one of the 'conventional meds' failures. A 600% rise in the past few years due to mass vaccination of babies,before the 40's-50's there were no such staggering statistics. www.thinktwice.com (data on how the FDA has suppressed test on the dangers of mercury in vaccines) Causing autism.
                              www.909shot.com (press release article dated nov15 2005;congress to bail out big pharma in secret.)

                              Many countries have acknowledged this increase and have thought twice about giving vaccines to babies Or not giving any at all. That is why the new bill is being pushed through congress right now"too many attourneys chasing big pharma for compensation due to adverse effects of these toxic vaccines".......
                              This bill prevents parents/patients from filing complaints cause by vaccine adverse effects.
                              This is only ONE EXAMPLE of the 'miracles' of 'conventional medicines.
                              There are thousands and thousands and thousands of 'cures' that have never been solved by conventional meds,only suppressed........and that is not showing us the public 'it works'.................
                              Gina Tyler

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