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Molecules are found in homeopathic potencies > See Inside ;)

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  • Molecules are found in homeopathic potencies > See Inside ;)

    Homeopathic potencies available in the market have molecules of respective starting material. Homeopathic Dr. MAS, who works in many homeopathic pharmacies as scientific research officer as freelance worker, disclosed this. He said, homeopathic potencies are prepared in series without the discontinuation of transferring of solute to next compound (see real bowl picture below) and adding of fresh solvent in the same compound. He further explained that when pharmacies manufacture potencies on large scale then they put solute in Compound No.1 and add solvent through black pipes and then 10 shakes are given. From the compound no. 1, without any break, the solute is transferred in the compound no 2 through another tube where jerks are given in compound no 2. This process is continuous upto compound no 30 (see arrow bowl no 17) for preparing 30c till it transfers to korosakov machine from where 200 to cm potencies are prepared.

    The manufactures adopt continuous method. There is no break in the preparation of potencies. When evacuation of the compound (bowl) is made, at the same time the machine fills the compound with fresh alcohol and jerks are given. This process is very fast.
    Our homeopathic group have visited hundred of homeopathic pharmacies under the leadership of Dr. MAS.

    Visit pharmacy: http://www.communitypk.com/cpk/kamal.htm

    He was repeatedly trying to convince to skeptics that you don’t have the practical experience of making homeopathic potencies. You have only book knowledge and you never did experiment. You have only baseless arguments, which have no real life experience.

    Dr. MAS said, In the picture, you can see that different compounds are fixed in group of series having no 1, 2, 3….. 14, 15, 16, 17 etc (arrow also indicating). During potency preparation, the solvent is added through black pipes and after spinning (fans are visible) and perform balloon jerks are given. The process is automatic, more solvent is added and old solution is transferred in the next compound numbered as (15, 16, 17 etc).

    The skeptic point of view was homeopathic potencies do not have molecules of starting material in above 12c potency. It was also their claim that according to Avogadros law non of the molecules of starting material can exist at above 12c potency. Skeptics offered one million dollar to prove the existence of molecules in homeopathic potencies in above 12c prepartion.

    Dr. MAS accepted that challenge and beaten skeptics at their home ground and home crowed with lot of skeptics self made family members and aliases all around by providing real life evidence that homeopathic potencies do have molecules of starting material in 13c potency and Avogadros law is not applicable as skeptics were applying.

    After proving the challenge, Dr. MAS regretted to claim one million dollar and said, if randi wants then he is ready to donate one million dollar to association that is sponsored by hhomeopharma, iqra and like homeopathic pharmacies.

  • #2
    As such, how molecules of raw remedy's substances will remain present in all the prepared remedies material in 30C or above potencies?
    Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
    Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

    Comment


    • #3
      The skeptic point of view was homeopathic potencies do not have molecules of starting material in above 12c potency. It was also their claim that according to Avogadros law non of the molecules of starting material can exist at above 12c potency.
      That is still the position. However, it has been recognized that in a practical pharmacy, the general contamination level will be far too high to ever actually reach Avogadro's limit. We calculated that even in a good laboratory, after 4-5C there will be no control over what is in the remedy, chemically.


      Skeptics offered one million dollar to prove the existence of molecules in homeopathic potencies in above 12c prepartion.
      This information is incorrect. The JREF prize of 1 million dollars is available for anybody who demonstrates something paranormal. To find molecules in a preparation due to imperfect laboratory practice is not paranormal.

      Dr. MAS accepted that challenge and beaten skeptics at their home ground and home crowed with lot of skeptics
      This information is incorrect. Dr. MAS has not applied for the JREF challenge. You do not participate in the challenge by discussing on the JREF froum, you file an application according to the JREF rules. Dr. MAS has not filed an application.

      self made family members and aliases
      This is a lie that Dr. MAS has been perpetuating in the JREF forum, that the identities he discussed with were just a number of aliasses. If they were, they would be in violation of the rules of the JREF forum, but Dr. MAS has never provided the slightest evidence for his accusations.

      all around by providing real life evidence that homeopathic potencies do have molecules of starting material in 13c potency and Avogadros law is not applicable as skeptics were applying.
      This is incorrect. All Dr. MAS has demonstrated is that a real-life lab has no control over what is in a remedy at potencies even lower thant 13C. He has not demonstrated that this necessarily means that the starting material is present, and especially not that it is present above the numerous other contaminants.

      Finally, he has not demonstrated how this is relevant for the discussion of how homeopathic remedies work.

      After proving the challenge, Dr. MAS regretted to claim one million dollar and said, if randi wants then he is ready to donate one million dollar to association that is sponsored by hhomeopharma, iqra and like homeopathic pharmacies.
      I have to call this a lie. Whoever writes this should know that the information is incorrect. Dr. MAS has not won anything. He has not even applied for the JREF challenge.


      To the administrators: This is the second thread that has been opened about this subject. The other one was deleted. I hope you will leave this one, at it is only reasonable that we have a chance to correct the misinformation above.

      Hans
      You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MRC_Hans
        To the administrators: This is the second thread that has been opened about this subject. The other one was deleted. I hope you will leave this one, at it is only reasonable that we have a chance to correct the misinformation above.

        Hans
        Is that what happened to the threads I've been asking about ? They got deleted ?

        How is that possible ? Is this due to bugs in the software ?

        MC

        Comment


        • #5
          Pls clear it

          Originally posted by MRC_Hans
          *That is still the position. However, it has been recognized that in a practical pharmacy, the general contamination level will be far too high to ever actually reach Avogadro's limit. We calculated that even in a good laboratory, after 4-5C there will be no control over what is in the remedy, chemically...
          Hans
          Can you tell, what do you mean by "general contamination level be far too high"? Are you refering to active and carrier substance particles or molecules evapoured during potentization process(not contaminations) or other outside standard/normal contaminations?

          Can you also tell, what do you mean by "to ever actually reach Avogadro's limit"--does it related to active substances or any molecule in normal contaminations?
          Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
          Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

          Comment


          • #6
            Kayveeh, this was explained to you elsewhere. Contamination can be anything:

            Dust, skin particles, chemicals in use in the lab, vapors of different kinds in the air, feacal matter, remains from insects, particles worn off machinery and furniture, contaminations in dilution media, contaminations in chemicals, etc, etc.

            When you get down to the sub-ppm levels, you will find, even in a quite clean lab, hundreds, if not thousands of different substances.

            Since the influx of these substances is constant, the level of their presense is not determined by the dilution ratio, but by the general contamination "floor" of the facility in question. As this floor can be shown to be billions of times more concentrated than concentrations near the Avogadro limit, the discussion of what happens at or near this limit becomes academic.

            If you will allow me a slightly bold analogy: If you pee in the ocean, does it become more polluted? The academical answer is yes, but for all practical purposes, it makes no difference at all.

            Hans
            You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MRC_Hans
              Kayveeh, this was explained to you elsewhere. Contamination can be anything:

              Dust, skin particles, chemicals in use in the lab, vapors of different kinds in the air, feacal matter, remains from insects, particles worn off machinery and furniture, contaminations in dilution media, contaminations in chemicals, etc, etc.
              Those can be common, constant or standard contaminants in all remedies and their effects may not be variable between different remedies. What about airborned particles of active substances?

              When you get down to the sub-ppm levels, you will find, even in a quite clean lab, hundreds, if not thousands of different substances.

              Since the influx of these substances is constant, the level of their presense is not determined by the dilution ratio, but by the general contamination "floor" of the facility in question. As this floor can be shown to be billions of times more concentrated than concentrations near the Avogadro limit, the discussion of what happens at or near this limit becomes academic.
              Yes, but this may be true in allopathic sense. In homeopathic sense, where even ultramolecular substances are considered important, we can look deep into it.

              If you will allow me a slightly bold analogy: If you pee in the ocean, does it become more polluted? The academical answer is yes, but for all practical purposes, it makes no difference at all.

              Hans
              But it might have not been potentised or made airborne. If you feel that we have to base on substancial chemical presence to justify in allopathic way, then why to waste time. Anyway, some rules/laws are there which suggest that weaker stumuli or lesser quantity of substance can encourage physiological effects or act opposite to chemicals in higher quantity.
              Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
              Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by kayveeh
                Those can be common, constant or standard contaminants in all remedies and their effects may not be variable between different remedies. What about airborned particles of active substances?
                What about them? They are just part of the noise.

                Yes, but this may be true in allopathic sense. In homeopathic sense, where even ultramolecular substances are considered important, we can look deep into it.
                You don't understand this at all, do you?

                But it might have not been potentised or made airborne.
                What difference would that make?

                If you feel that we have to base on substancial chemical presence to justify in allopathic way, then why to waste time.
                Yes, why do you and I waste time on this? I don't know about you, but I picked up this line because some Pakistani homeopaths kept insisting it was important. I don't know why they think so, and since you apparantly don't think so, I don't know why you are participating.

                Anyway, some rules/laws are there which suggest that weaker stumuli or lesser quantity of substance can encourage physiological effects or act opposite to chemicals in higher quantity.
                Irrelevant.

                Hans
                You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MRC_Hans
                  What about them? They are just part of the noise.
                  Means, you agree clearly that molecules of active substance can be present in every homeopathic remedy??

                  You don't understand this at all, do you?
                  About effects by few molecules or weak stumuli, many laws are indicated. That we can discuss seprately, if you are interested.

                  What difference would that make?
                  Not become airborne.



                  Yes, why do you and I waste time on this? I don't know about you, but I picked up this line because some Pakistani homeopaths kept insisting it was important. I don't know why they think so, and since you apparantly don't think so, I don't know why you are participating.

                  Irrelevant.

                  Hans
                  I respect all knowledges and possibilities. I don't say that few molecular presence can't effect as we have many laws/practices/theories which suggest that weak stmuli/sensation can trigger/encourage physiological(I add phychlogical also) activities...and can pursue if science people want/encourage and support it. Do you?
                  Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
                  Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    KV, you apparantly don't understand this. You are just doing your usual picking whatever detail that suits you out of the context.

                    The weak stimuli effects are not about a few molecules. They are about a low dose, and that is something entirely different.

                    Also, your line of argumentation is fatal to your cause: If you want to argue that a few molecules of a substance in a remedy can be responsible for the effect, you are in serious trouble, because, as I have explained, a remedy will contain millions of molecules of hundreds of different substances, so how are you going to argue that precisely those of the raw substance, if present, are responsible for the effect?

                    I have asked you before, KV, do you have any idea of the size of a molecule?

                    Hans
                    You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MRC_Hans
                      KV, you apparantly don't understand this. You are just doing your usual picking whatever detail that suits you out of the context.
                      Do you understand science of homeopathic working? If not, pls don't make anything invalid--absolutely?

                      The weak stimuli effects are not about a few molecules. They are about a low dose, and that is something entirely different.
                      Some effects can be grossly felt by common people other effects may not. But it does not mean that we are not getting effects. We may have to evaulate, measure and feel effects (by deepest meditation/concentrations and prolonged practices as our ancient saint/scientists done or by any capable instrument) produced by any substance in any form by sensing/taking capabilities of individual units of our body...that may be cellular or sub/ultra-cellular(?).

                      Can our cells or any other individual unit of our body sense effect of a molecule or few molecules?

                      Also, your line of argumentation is fatal to your cause: If you want to argue that a few molecules of a substance in a remedy can be responsible for the effect, you are in serious trouble, because, as I have explained, a remedy will contain millions of molecules of hundreds of different substances, so how are you going to argue that precisely those of the raw substance, if present, are responsible for the effect?
                      Your views/evaluation may not be of mine and true. Why Homeopaths do such a hard work before prescribing the single and similar individualized remedy (the Simillium)?

                      I have asked you before, KV, do you have any idea of the size of a molecule?

                      Hans
                      As per its MW and structure.

                      Here, it causes more strain/contractions or physiological/psychological activity in me to see a decimal/point in my computer screen than to see whole screen. How such a small size decimal%
                      Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
                      Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It comes to my notice that Hans is lieing about mas and me at various forums about the winning prize of james randi prize. It is for clarification that the above cited post does not reveal that Dr. MAS has actually won the prize. (Read Again)

                        Actually Dr. MAS has offered one million dollar prize money to james randi, as he is ill. Now James has undergone bye pass surgery. If they need they mass.org are ready to donate one million dollar prize to james that is sponsored by www.hhomeopharma.com , Igra & like pharmacies.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          At this link, Dr. MAS disclosed the prize money which was sponsored by pakistani pharmacies.

                          http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=584

                          That prize money actually dr. mas offered to James Randi becos he is seriously ill.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            We are still waiting for MAS to provide documentation that his prize actually exists.

                            This has been asked at least 20 times, but Dr. Sheikh has refused to provide such documentation.

                            We can only conclude that the prize does not exist.

                            As for the claim that MAS won hte Randi price, you can all read the opening post in this thread and make your own conslusions.

                            Hans
                            You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Avogadro Number and Homeopathy

                              Avogadro Number and Homeopathy

                              Many experiments have been conducted in the more remote past as well as re-cently, to at least prove the existence of something in our potencies, of which I will give some examples here.

                              1. In 1948, Wormser and Loch tested several substances from 24X to 30X. They used a photoelectric cell, to measure the intensity and wavelength of these potencies and found measurable changes, of both intensity and wave-length in these substances.

                              2. In the years 1951-3, Gay and Boiron tested both distilled water and Natrum muriaticum in the 27C potency for their dielectric constant. They were able to show that the potency of Natrum mur. could be easily selec-ted from among 99 control bottles.

                              3. In 1963, Boericke and Smith tested a 12X potency of Sulphur, with and without succussion. They tested the solvent structure by nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum. They found that there were structural changes in the solvent, as the potency was increased by succussion, while no such change was detected in the controls. They repeated the experiment in 1974, with diverse potencies of Sulphur, up to the 30C.

                              4. In 1966, Stephenson and Brucato tested both distilled water and Mercu-rius corrosivus, from the 1X to the 33X. They found that the dielectric constant for the controls varied from 5.6 to 6.05. For the homoeopathic potencies it varied from 2.8 to 4.4.

                              5. In 1975, Young tested Sulphur from 5X to 30X, with controls. He also tested the solvent structure by nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum. He found that there were measurable changes in the spectra at each dilution and succussion. No such changes were observed for the solution without succussion or without Sulphur.

                              6. In 1976, Boiron and Vinh used Raman Laser Spectroscopy, showing that for the 1C potency of Kali bichromicum the spectrum of alcohol disap-pears completely, while that for potassium bichromate appears. In Kali bich 1C the ratio of the number of potassium bichromate molecules is 1 to 500. In such a case the light meets 500 more alcohol molecules as those of bichromate, yet the alcohol spectrum does not appear.

                              7. In 1982, Resch, Gutman and Schauer found that dilute sodium chloride solutions revealed an increase in electrical conductivity, by rocking them prior to measurement.

                              8. Four French researchers developed a method of detection through nu-clear magnetic resonance, conducted in the late 80's, which shows spe-cific sinus waves for each potency, as well as a specific sinus wave for the substance used. These latter remain the same throughout all poten-cies of that substance, while the sinus wave expressing the potencies, are specific to those potencies. Thus a clear and recognisable scientifi-cally provable frame of reference exists, for each remedy and potency.

                              9. More recent NMR studies have reached similar conclusions (Demangeat et al., 1992; Weingärtner, 1992).

                              10. Recent experiments with Raman Laser Spectrography have shown that a 1M potency (1 divided by 100 to the –1000th power) of Kali bichromicum reveal the spectrum of Kali bichromicum and not that of water. It must be realized that there are supposedly no molecules of Kali bichromicum present in this dilution rate, since it is way beyond Avogadro’s limit, which lies at 1024 or 10012.

                              11. Another Raman Laser Spectrography test with Natrum muriaticum 10M showed the spectrum of Chloride of sodium, instead that of water. It must be noted that here the dilution rate is a 1000 times smaller still than that of the previous example.

                              12. Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10-30 g/cm-3) have been irradiated by X-rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermo luminescence has been studied and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avo-gadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially.

                              Courtesy: Hpathy = Homeopathy : Homeopathic Medicines, Homeopathy Remedies & Treatment
                              http://drnancymalik.wordpress.com/

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