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  • A proving, then what?

    So, since everybody kept saying how enlightening it would be, I made what I think is termed a high-potency self-proving. In my neck of the woods, homeopathic drugs are difficult to come by, but there is such a thing as internet-buying.

    I choose someting called Ars 30C, since I know that arsenic actually has some medical uses - and is relatively harmless in small doses.

    I took one pill, one evening. No unusual effects noted.

    Next evening, two, one hour apart. No usual effects noted.

    Next evening, four, two at a time one hour apart. No usual effects noted.

    Next evening eight four at a time, one hour apart. Only "unusual" effect strong smell of urine, but then, I had asparagous for dinner, so I guess that was not so unusual after all.

    That was thre days ago. Should I proceed to 16 tablets or what? I'd rather not, they taste kinda yucky.

    SO, what now? I can't say I feel enlightened. What was supposed to happen?

    Hans
    You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

  • #2
    Welcome Mr.Hans. Some changes are there as started mentioning (Mr.)? I think others will guide you. Inspite of that:
    "Drugs 'don't work on many people'. A medicine might work well in one person, and not at all for another."
    BBC LINK
    Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
    Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

    Comment


    • #3
      I think we'd like you to have a horrible Arsenic aggravation. (AH the hardness of my heart!!)

      SO my advise for that is:
      2 pills of Ars Alb 30C 3 times a day for 3 week.

      I would like you to notice the following:
      1. what is the change in your outlook of your normal circumstances?
      Hint: You would probably feel anxious or fearful of illness when otherwise you would not.
      Cannot bear dirty stuff and wanting things clean or in place. MAybe you gave your house a good clean up today when it may have been a total mess otherwise?

      "They taste kind of Yucky" is a good place to start. SInce when does Alcohol and sugar taste yucky to you? You must be quite used to the odd drink or two?
      I'll tell you what, dissolve the pills in water, stir hard and take a teaspoonful every few minutes if you like.

      2. What are the new physical sensations you may have noticed?
      General: Weakness, or tired with work, or feeling sleepless?
      Specific: Burning sensations internally or in specific areas of pain. Anf then just about anyting else you feel sensitive enough to notice - OR HONEST ENOUGH TO MENTION.
      So note down symptoms you expereince with whatever possible sincerity you have and tell us.

      This is a perfectly horrible way to go about a (good, reliable)proving.
      Then maybe someone else has better ideas for you.

      [ 16. December 2003, 15:41: Message edited by: doctorleela ]
      http://www.homeopathy2health.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Wanted to add one more word of advise for your Allopathic mind.
        DON'T LOOK FOR SOMETHING "UNUSUAL" - as in pathological changes or physical/pathological disturbances.

        Look for "functional" effects and sensations from the allopathic standpoint. Look for "USUAL" symptoms that are out of the normal for you as a person. (This is assuming you know what is normal for you as a person).
        http://www.homeopathy2health.com

        Comment


        • #5
          OK Hans,
          I retract - (Its my hard heart melting).

          Jus take as many doses in repetition that produces the type of observations I mentioned above, and then stop.
          http://www.homeopathy2health.com

          Comment


          • #6
            leela


            Seems I was too late to stop Hans, but looking back at the old posts it seems he's been goaded into it!

            Right, so now you have your n=1 trial running and have driven a coach and horses through any idea of blinding and objectivity even in this simple example;


            1. what is the change in your outlook of your normal circumstances?
            Hint: You would probably feel anxious or fearful of illness when otherwise you would not.
            Cannot bear dirty stuff and wanting things clean or in place. MAybe you gave your house a good clean up today when it may have been a total mess otherwise?

            "They taste kind of Yucky" is a good place to start. SInce when does Alcohol and sugar taste yucky to you? You must be quite used to the odd drink or two?
            I'll tell you what, dissolve the pills in water, stir hard and take a teaspoonful every few minutes if you like.

            2. What are the new physical sensations you may have noticed?
            General: Weakness, or tired with work, or feeling sleepless?
            Specific: Burning sensations internally or in specific areas of pain. Anf then just about anyting else you feel sensitive enough to notice - OR HONEST ENOUGH TO MENTION.
            So note down symptoms you expereince with whatever possible sincerity you have and tell us.
            Very well done. How can you mess up even such a simple exercise, for all that it was a waste of Hans' money in the first place. Hey, but what the heck, I'll take some as well and now you've got n=2. Now you've told me what I'm supposed to be feeling what do I have to do next?

            While your thinking on that one how about we reiterate the Prize Challenge Question;

            "Why does one person taking a remedy make a valid demonstration if a group of people taking a remedy and having the results looked at properly not make a valid disproof?"

            Possibly now you can do the critique on the Devon School's provings. (Hint: you've made most of their mistakes, so you've got something to compare it with)

            Remember, we're still looking for the name of this type of proof as well.

            Comment


            • #7
              Leela, why do you even waste your breath?

              Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.<br />C.G.Jung

              Comment


              • #8
                Mrc

                You continue to surprise, and impress. My hat is off to you. Best wishes.

                as for this new person feeling you've been goaded into this n=1 trial, that is the usual falderol of true believers. i think, for what it is worth to you, that you are rather driven by your own search for the truth, a search that is not helped along by avoiding uncomfortable ideas. unless in my naivete i misread your motives, i have to admire your willingness to explore alien territory. you're off the troll list again, hans ... until next time at least!!

                oy vez - you're making me dizzy!

                Bach


                Doctorleela:

                on the other hand, did you have to tell him the right way to do it? now we miss all the fun of a deep, painful, and agonizing decline!

                Bach

                [ 17. December 2003, 02:17: Message edited by: bwv11 ]
                "The need to perform adjustments for covariates...weakens the findings." BMJ Clinical Evidence: Mental Health, (No. 11), p. 95.... It's that simple, guys: bad numbers make bad science.


                Comment


                • #9
                  My apologies to the homeopathic side for my posts. It was homeopathically inappropriate... broke many rules.

                  But really the thought of Hans aggravating on Ars Alb 30C or even 200C which I was going to suggest - was too funny to resist.
                  Having said that I have had dreadful pangs of conscience through the night - Hans has been one of the most sincere of these anti homeopathy crusaders.

                  Divina, temptation -

                  [ 17. December 2003, 03:23: Message edited by: doctorleela ]
                  http://www.homeopathy2health.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    leela:
                    I think we'd like you to have a horrible Arsenic aggravation. (AH the hardness of my heart!!)

                    No, no, no. Do try to keep things straight. *I* am the hard-hearted one, remember?

                    SO my advise for that is:
                    2 pills of Ars Alb 30C 3 times a day for 3 week.

                    That is not kosher homeopathy. Both according to simple logic and according to Hahnemann (not always the same thing ), taking the same remedy in the same dose for an extended time is wrong.

                    I would like you to notice the following:
                    1. what is the change in your outlook of your normal circumstances?
                    Hint: You would probably feel anxious or fearful of illness when otherwise you would not.
                    Cannot bear dirty stuff and wanting things clean or in place. MAybe you gave your house a good clean up today when it may have been a total mess otherwise?

                    Nah, sorry, I am me old messy self. Not messy, actually, but - same as ever.

                    "They taste kind of Yucky" is a good place to start. SInce when does Alcohol and sugar taste yucky to you? You must be quite used to the odd drink or two?

                    Why do you assume I am used to "the odd drink or two"?? These things are not sugar, they are lactose. Since the next dose in my protocol would have been 8 at a time ... But perhaps YOU like to shovel in sweets?

                    I'll tell you what, dissolve the pills in water, stir hard and take a teaspoonful every few minutes if you like.

                    This rather flies in the face of the advice I have otherwise had from several sources of not even touching the tablets, rather shake them into the lid of the pill glass then tip them into my mouth. Are you a homeopath?

                    2. What are the new physical sensations you may have noticed?
                    General: Weakness, or tired with work, or feeling sleepless?
                    Specific: Burning sensations internally or in specific areas of pain. Anf then just about anyting else you feel sensitive enough to notice - OR HONEST ENOUGH TO MENTION.

                    Ohhh? So now I am lying .

                    So note down symptoms you expereince with whatever possible sincerity you have and tell us.

                    This is a perfectly horrible way to go about a (good, reliable)proving.
                    Then maybe someone else has better ideas for you.
                    Not only may it be a horrible way, but it is also contrary to everything I have heard and read about provings. Earlier, I have been told: "Just a single tablet, or maybe two or three, and your outlook will be changed forever". I thought that might be a bit exaggerated, so I took some more, but now you want to move the goal-posts a few miles. Now it is two pills 3 times a day for 3 weeks. And look for specific feelings?

                    Those things you mention are fairly common things. Sooner or later, ANYBODY will feel at least one of those "symptoms", so, I have to assume, after three weeks, you will ask me to continue, and if, at some time, I notice anything like the things you mention, we are gonna cry "HEUREKA!", and assume it was due to the medicine? :rolleye:

                    Hans

                    [ 17. December 2003, 07:35: Message edited by: MRC_Hans ]
                    You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Bach:
                      Mrc

                      You continue to surprise, and impress. My hat is off to you. Best wishes.

                      as for this new person feeling you've been goaded into this n=1 trial, that is the usual falderol of true believers.

                      Now, I'm not a person that is easily goaded into things, if at all, but the remark is actually appropriate and not falderol at all. A couple of my threads here seems to have been deleted, but if you counted the number of times I have been told that I was completely incompetent because I had not done this.....

                      i think, for what it is worth to you, that you are rather driven by your own search for the truth, a search that is not helped along by avoiding uncomfortable ideas.

                      Where exactly have I been avoiding uncomfortable ideas?

                      unless in my naivete i misread your motives, i have to admire your willingness to explore alien territory. you're off the troll list again, hans ... until next time at least!!

                      oy vez - you're making me dizzy!

                      Until next time I want you to look at an uncomfortable idea, perchance?

                      Bach


                      Doctorleela:

                      on the other hand, did you have to tell him the right way to do it? now we miss all the fun of a deep, painful, and agonizing decline!
                      So, again: How do we distinguish a homeopathic drug from placebo? :razz:

                      Hans
                      You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Mr.Hans,

                        Just take care. You can be blamed for not followed the instructions. If you want to check, just follow the instructions.
                        Homeopathic & Biochemic system existed because Drs.Hahnemann & Schuessler thought differently.
                        Successful people don't do different things, they do things differently..Shiv Khera

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Now, I'm not a person that is easily goaded into things, if at all, but the remark is actually appropriate and not falderol at all. A couple of my threads here seems to have been deleted, but if you counted the number of times I have been told that I was completely incompetent because I had not done this.....
                          one thing that distinguishes you, hans, is that you responded, apparently, to the 'goading.' others have been told the same thing just as persistently, but hid their heads in the sand. i assume these 'goadings' had an effect on you, but their usual effect on "your type" (pardon) is to stiffen your (their) resistance. you appear influenced by your curiosity and honesty to a greater degree than usual - and i count that an asset.

                          i think, for what it is worth to you, that you are rather driven by your own search for the truth, a search that is not helped along by avoiding uncomfortable ideas.

                          Where exactly have I been avoiding uncomfortable ideas?
                          now, hans, this is the kind of thing you do that is just careless reading: i was trying to pay you a compliment. i think the idea of doing a self-proving is an "uncomfortable idea," an experience or a source of information that is alien to your usual mode of functioning, and which every medical researcher i have seen previously has assiduoulsy avoided. this is, i was trying to say, an asset: you do not avoid uncomfortable ideas! so you can just say, 'thanks.'
                          unless in my naivete i misread your motives, i have to admire your willingness to explore alien territory. you're off the troll list again, hans ... until next time at least!!

                          oy vez - you're making me dizzy!

                          Until next time I want you to look at an uncomfortable idea, perchance? ?
                          i'm rather satisfied that, over the years, i have looked in the face uncomfortable and even disagreeable ideas, and ended incorporating them, or some portion of them, into my view of things. i won't say i do it every time. i won't say i lack strong opinions, convictions. i won't say one should ALWAYS venture to explore 'uncomfortable' or 'alien' ideas, but as a general thing, the willingness ought to be there. its hard to judge, when someone says 'no,' whether its because they have 'good' reason, or are just being stubborn - as i think most or all researchers have been when confronted with this same question, falling back on convenient and trite rationalizations to avoid the experience.

                          i accuse them of this because, in this situation, they have ostensibly been seeking out information about homeopathy, ostensibly interested in 'proving' or disproving its claims, yet operate on a set of impenetrable preconceptions. to your credit, you risk a lot, in terms of pre-held convictions, in order to explore your subject.

                          unless you are not curious at all, and in fact are just being goaded. in which case, call my office for an appointment! even so, this still leaves you 'open' to the compliment that you are willing to accept a challenge at least to make a point.

                          again, good luck in your proving.

                          bach
                          "The need to perform adjustments for covariates...weakens the findings." BMJ Clinical Evidence: Mental Health, (No. 11), p. 95.... It's that simple, guys: bad numbers make bad science.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Oh Lord, here we go again!

                            Seems like this is going to be an IMPOTENT proving and thread like all the other discussions by these people.

                            Divina remind me not to give in to temptation again!

                            [ 17. December 2003, 09:42: Message edited by: doctorleela ]
                            http://www.homeopathy2health.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Kayveeh:

                              Yeah, but WHICH instructions? Hahnemann's? Hahnemannian444's? Leelas'? ....?

                              Seems that no matter what I do, it will be said that I didn't follow instructions .

                              Bach:

                              Mmmm, yes, I am aware of your compliments. So, after much bashing, you give me a pat on the shoulder and I'm happy again? I do appreciate your willingness to change your view on me, but apart from these ups and downs, we don't seem to get anywhere, do we?

                              Leela and Bach:

                              "Good luck in your proving" "This seems to become an IMPOTENT" prooving"

                              So, a proving is only a proving if it produces the result you expect? Hmmm...

                              I just made a proving. It was more or less according to the different instructions I have been given, and the descriptions I have read in a number of websites, but now I suddenly haven't done it after all??

                              The only one who has come up with a reasonable reply is Kayveeh: "Not all medicines work on all people". Fair enough, so apparantly Ars does not work on me. What now? Which do you suggest I try next (at 4.50 plus postage)? There must be SOME sure-fire things in your inventory??

                              Hans
                              You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

                              Comment

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